WestIndianDiplomacy.com: An interview with Melissa, West Indian historian

In this bonus episode of The Moreish Podcast, Hema and Mireille speak with Melissa Goolsarran Ramnauth, a Florida-based trademark and business attorney, historian, and the mind behind WestIndianDiplomacy.com and the West Indian History Instagram account.

Melissa shares her journey of exploring her Trinidadian and Guyanese heritage, the challenges of preserving Indian indentured servant and African enslaved people's records in the Caribbean, and her efforts to digitize these crucial historical documents. She highlights the rapidly deteriorating condition of these records in some countries and her petition to preserve and make the records accessible.

The episode delves into topics of colonialism, communal strife between ethnic communities in the Caribbean, and the rich cultural heritage expressed through cuisine.

Resources:
Connect with Melissa:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westindianhistory/

Website & Petition: https://westindiandiplomacy.com/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/libraryofwestindianhistory 

YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/@Lawyer_Melissa

slavevoyages.org

Coolie Woman by Gaiutra Bahadur

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hema: Hi, Mireille.

[00:00:02] Mireille: Hi, Hema.

[00:00:04] Hema: We have a special bonus episode of The Moreish Podcast. In our research, Mireille and I use a number of different sources and resources from experts or people working in the field of Caribbean history and historians.

And one of the Instagram accounts that I follow and have been referencing is West Indian Diplomacy led by Melissa. She shares easy to digest information on West Indian history, indentured servitude, and Caribbean culture, which is why I really wanted to have a conversation with her today. She also has a petition to preserve and digitize Indian indentured servant records and enslaved African records, which I'm sure she'll talk about a little bit more once we get into that interview. We'll link that in the show notes. 

[00:00:56] Mireille: I'm so excited to talk with her today. So let's learn a little bit about her. Melissa Goolsarran Ramnauth is a trademark and business attorney based in Florida. She is also a historian with a focus on Guyana and Trinidad, seeking to learn and share history about the ships used to transport Indian indentured servants and enslaved African people to Trinidad and Guyana. On her website, West Indian Diplomacy, which we will link in the notes, Melissa has a petition to preserve and digitize Indian indentured servant and enslaved African records in the Caribbean.

[00:01:34] Hema: Hi, Melissa. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:01:40] Melissa: Thank you for having me. I'm really glad to be here, and I appreciate the invite.

[00:01:45] Hema: I'm so excited for everybody to learn all about the work that you're doing, but let's take a step back and why don't you introduce yourself and the work that you do.

[00:01:56] Melissa: Sure. My name is Melissa. I am Trini and Guyanese, born and raised in Miami. And I am a lawyer, also a wife and a mom, and a few years ago, I've always loved history. History has always been my thing. I have a minor in it in college. But a few years ago, I was really just wanting to know my own history. And, you know, we didn't learn it growing up here, even though Miami's diverse, they never taught it.

My parents and grandparents, they didn't know much. I think, you know, they were busy working in the fields and maybe the education also wasn't available to them. So I just bought all the books I could find on Amazon and I just kind of dived in and I started sharing what I found on social media and on my website.

And because I know if I didn't know it, and I know my sister didn't know it, that other people may be interested as well, and I just been sharing my work that way, and I kind of, I was sharing everything that I was learning. But then I kind of, you know, narrowed it down specifically to the ships that brought Indian indentured servants and enslaved Africans to the Caribbean.

And that's kind of been my thing to keep me on the straight and narrow as, you know, working and I'm a mom of three, it's hard to find time to share things. So I figured, this is kind of a way to keep me in line and focused and manage what I want to share. And I realized that the records regarding the ships that brought Indian indentured servants, they are available, but in some countries they're rapidly deteriorating.

Other countries like Suriname have done a great job to preserve them and make them available online. But places like Guyana, they are not kept in the best of conditions based on my understanding and video that David Dabydeen has put out. And so if we don't preserve them, they could be lost. And that's really our main connection to find out where we're from in India.

And I've tried to find similar records for enslaved Africans, but a lot of those records were not preserved. Or they were, it was not necessarily legal or something that wanted to be preserved. So I haven't been able to find much there. There is a database called slavevoyages.com. That's probably the most thorough site that I've seen so far.

Um, but in terms of actual physical records, there's not many that I know of. And so I started a petition to try to preserve whatever records we have and to make them available online for people to access. The UK has a lot of records, but it's very expensive to fly there and then sift through the records and you don't even know what you're looking at.

So if there's a way that we could preserve it and make it accessible. That's my goal. 

[00:05:11] Hema: You mentioned the Slave Voyages database, who we actually already spoke to. Um, and it is really, as they described it, quite an undertaking to, as you mentioned, sift through the records, collate them, digitize them, and put them out there. So the work that you're doing as one individual is quite a lot.

[00:05:37] Mireille: Yes, because just to say they have a team from something like six different universities, if I recall, working to put together that information for you as one is definitely, you deserve some applause.

[00:05:52] Melissa: Thank you so much. So far, I'm just trying to petition the government to get this done. It seems like it started and it stopped at least once so far. It's a political… Unfortunately, it's just something that falls within like the political machine and so it gets pushed to the bottom of the totem pole every time there is something new or, you know, more appealing that comes ahead of it.

[00:06:20] Hema: So you mentioned petitioning the government. Which government are you talking to about this?

[00:06:26] Melissa: Yeah, so I collected the signatures and I've sent it to Caricom and Trinidad and Guyana, um, whatever information I could find online, I've emailed them, I've also sent it to the embassies, and I've also sent physical mail, and I haven't heard back except from, uh, the Trinidad Embassy and their archives, and they basically told me that they're in the process, but they just have one person currently working on it, so it's just taking some time. So my goal is to hopefully like, if they could allocate more resources, this can get done and it can become available because it's, it's really been over a hundred years and I think, you know, even waiting 10 years is still too long.

[00:07:14] Mireille: Um, since both those countries were British colonized countries and it was the British who brought the indentured servants over, have you thought about trying to petition the British government?

[00:07:26] Melissa: Oh, that's a great point. Yes. I have also sent it to the British government as well. I believe I sent it to the correspondents that I saw for like King Charles's office and I haven't heard back. I did, um, get in touch with someone who is in a group that is hoping to get a one on one meeting with the president of Guyana this month or next month.

So, they're just going to let me know. And they are very interested in getting this done as well.

[00:08:00] Hema: I'm just going to put this out there to anybody listening today. If you have any influence, or any pull, reach out to Melissa because I think she can use all the help that she can get in moving this forward. Because you know, correct me if I'm wrong, Melissa, but every day that goes on the chances of these records no longer existing becomes greater and greater.

[00:08:24] Melissa: Yes, and I get goosebumps anytime somebody messages me and tells me these stories. Um, people who have gone to seen the records, they say that, you know, there's crumbled up pieces on the floor. Um, actually, who reached out to me, it was Chef Devin, he put me in touch with his dad, and his dad is part of that committee that I mentioned and, um, other people have told me that, you know, sometimes if people go to see the records instead of taking a picture of it, they will rip out the page to keep it for themselves. And, you know, you have your records, but, you know, there's like 50 other people on that page that now they may not know their information as well.

And, um, David Dabydeen did a video in the 80s and they were not in an air conditioned building. Um, so it's just something that is really something we need to protect right away.

[00:09:18] Hema: I agree. Um, I want to talk about the work that you've done and uncovered, um, about indentured servitude in the Caribbean because it does really seem to be an area of history that isn't talked about as much as the enslaved Africans, or in the spaces that I've been in. Um, and I'd like to know a little bit more about what you have found out about the people that were taken. And I'm not sure if taken is the right word. I've heard a couple of different things that they were forced, or they were tricked, or they went willingly. Um, but what did you find out?

[00:09:56] Melissa: Yeah, um, sure. So growing up I was…we were just under the impression that the Indian indentured servants were presented an opportunity to sign a contract, work for five years, and then return home. The more I read and the more I spoke with people, including my family members, I realized that that probably was not the whole truth or enough.

So Coolie Woman is probably the most thorough resource that I have. And she has a lot of examples of, you know, kidnapping or just exploitation because no one really knew what they were getting into. And so, um, even in my own family, my great grandmother, she told her children and grandchildren, and they told me that she was playing where the ship was docked with other kids, crew members lured them on with candy, and when they went on the ship, they sailed away. And so that's how she ended up in Guyana. And when I shared that story on my Instagram, a lot of other people commented that their grandparents and great grandparents told them similar stories as well.

And so my great grandmother, she came with a lot of other people in her village. And so she ended up marrying someone from that village, but we don't know anything else more than that. And so that was, you know, a direct connection to me and a lot of other people have similar feelings as well. I know my, on my Trini side, my great grandmother, she would not want to leave Trinidad and fly to Florida to visit my aunts and uncles because her mother used to tell her don't leave Trinidad because they won't let you come back or you're not going to be able to come back.

So I assume that my great great grandmother was also tricked into going to Trinidad as well because why would my great grandmother have this fear? It's because her Mother told her.

[00:12:01] Hema: That's the interesting thing about the history, um, is, is most of it comes from the perspective of the colonizers and not from the perspective of the people that were taken, whether it's the indentured servants or the enslaved Africans. And I think there's been more and more work in recent years to uncover the real stories, so I love hearing that you've heard stories from your family members, um, about what it really was like. 

[00:12:31] Melissa: Right. I was very surprised to hear that. My eldest aunt, she relayed that story to me. And I was, she just said, it's such a matter of factly, like, you know, that's just our family history, but I was hearing it for the first time. So I was so surprised. And then I checked with my dad and my other aunts, and they had just the similar way.

They was just matter of fact, yeah, that's how she came. They, they tricked her with the candy. Um, but it is just, you know, at that point, that was just common knowledge to them, but it's so shocking to hear that.

[00:13:10] Hema: Absolutely. Were you ever, um, told, did they ever share what the conditions were like when they reached either Guyana or Trinidad. Um, obviously it was around the time when slavery was abolished, but what conditions did they, did they end up in?

[00:13:24] Melissa: I don't have specifics on the conditions. I think for both sides, most of them came towards the latter end of the indentured servitude period. So, um, for me, it's generally my great grandparents or my great great grandparents. So they came towards like the late 1800s or early 1900s. Um, so I think the conditions were probably, at least, you know, my aunts and uncles, they may have, you know, some kind of idea of like what it was like, but um, I assume just based on Gaiutra Bahadur's book, Coolie Woman, that it was kind of one step removed from slavery.

So where they housed them initially, I think it was former, you know, slave barriers or, um, housing. And so that tells us it was probably, you know, not the best of conditions.

[00:14:27] Hema: Absolutely. You write a lot about culture on your site, whether it's from food or Carnival or other aspects of culture, mostly, I think, around Trinidad and Guyana, but other places in the Caribbean. But I'd love to know from you what your thoughts are on how the Indian indentured servants really influenced and changed the culture in either Trinidad, Guyana, or anywhere around the Caribbean.

[00:14:58] Melissa: Yeah, I, it's, it's, I think that Indian indentured servants helped to create, you know, this culture, such a unique experience, you know, they were brought in, there were already, you know, enslaved Africans who had gained their freedom. And so it was a way for the two cultures to kind of almost merge and create, you know, this distinct culture, like you mentioned earlier, that Indians assume that we share their culture, some of them, but it is very different, like, if we see or… we can't necessarily relate to what we see in Bollywood or even our South Asian friends. The culture of the Caribbean is unique. And I think from having crossed the ocean and have to survive and you know, whatever passed on is what survived that created a completely distinct culture.

[00:16:05] Mireille: Absolutely. I always tell people Indian culture and Indo-Caribbean culture are two very different things.

[00:16:13] Melissa: Yes, uh, growing up we just referred to Indians from India as India Indian, like that's not us, those are India Indians.

[00:16:21] Mireille: Exactly.

[00:16:24] Hema: This is not an area that you really delved into, but maybe you have learned a little bit about indentured servants coming from other parts of the world to the Caribbean.

[00:16:37] Melissa: Um, I have not, um, necessarily, but I think in my Instagram community, people had mentioned, um, that their ancestors were from like Afghanistan and the Middle East, uh, and now they are in the Caribbean. So that was something new to hear about. And, um, I researched a little bit on Chinese indentured servants.

One of my great grandfathers, um, his family had come from China. There were not as many as the Indian indentured servants, but they still left a lasting impact on the community.

[00:17:25] Mireille: And what about, especially in Guyana, I know there's a sizable Portuguese influence and many of the Portuguese came. Have you done any research with their histories and, and how they affected somewhat the cultures of Guyana, especially. 

[00:17:42] Melissa: I, I did do some research. I think when I was trying to find the anniversary of the arrivals for the ships, there were maybe four ships that went from, uh, you know, for the Portuguese. So I know I see people online too. They are Guyanese of Portuguese descent as well. But it's not something that I found that was easily accessible.

[00:18:08] Hema: One of the things that I find, and Mireille and I were talking about this just before hopping on this call with you today, is finding credible sources of information, right? Because all of the work that you're doing, um, and the petition to digitize the records and make them available to the public. In, until that happens, how do you determine what is a credible source and what's not when you're doing your research?

[00:18:36] Melissa: Yes. So whatever I find from Coolie Woman, I know that is a credible source because she cites the actual records and I'm sure it took her like probably five years to write that book, but if I am just, you know, looking for something, I will just start on Google. It'll usually lead me to Wikipedia. And if I don't find corroborating source within there, or other Google, you know, references, then, you know, I question whether it is, um, you know, reliable.

So, I have to find, you know, like, a lot of corroborating evidence. And so, whatever I find on slavevoyages, I accept that. Coolie Woman, I accept that. I have, um, a few print books as well, but not a lot of the books go into the ships. And so that's why I think it's really important to get the ship logs digitized, but also the crew journals and the captain journals, because that gives us more information on what happened on the ship, where there are fights, where there are deaths, like that gives us the narratives and we need that information digitized so that way I could put together a bigger picture and explain more.

[00:20:18] Mireille:  So let me just ask you only because just from my own experience and my own family experiences, you know, there seems to be in Guyana, a lot more to this day, still communal strife between the Indian community and the Black community, and that really doesn't seem to be a major problem in Trinidad as it is in Guyana.

Do you have any insight as to what might be those differences?

[00:20:23] Melissa: That is a great question and I never, um, was asked that question in terms of comparing it to Trinidad because those communities are so similar and I know because I grew up in both of them, but now that you ask that, um, probably one factor was that, you know, in the 1960s, the United States CIA, they intervened in the elections that were going on at the time. They did not want Cheddi Jagan to be the president or prime minister. So what they did was they created racial divide. Um, they really like pushed that out. And that could be one of the reasons for this lasting tension among the groups, and it's very unfortunate because I assume it was around during colonial times as a way to prevent the two groups from merging against the plantation owners.

They wanted to keep them separate, let the Indians maintain their language and their customs so they wouldn't mix with the Africans that were there, but I would assume that would fade with time, but I think in the 60s when that was reinvigorated, that kind of created another level of tension that we see today.

[00:21:49] Hema: And that's a really great question Mireille. I do see it in the Trinidadian community. And I always felt like, and this is very anecdotal, um, that it was a holdover from the time when, you know, the British ruled, they were the white people who still are amongst some of the wealthiest, um, and then the Indians who had that indentured servitude, um, who were considered higher than the enslaved Africans. And that hierarchy in some way seems to still exist. And I think it still does in some people's minds, even though they don't really understand why.

[00:22:36] Mireille: Yes, because I think whether you're calling it the effects of colonialism, racism, colorism, whatever, these things I think are structural. They, they, they weave their way into government systems, into education, into all these things. And I think people don't even realize because it happens on such a subconscious level.

[00:23:01] Hema: Yeah, and it, and it's passed down generation to generation, right? We learn from, um, our elders and those sentiments are passed down whether it's consciously or unconsciously. And I think to get past that sometimes requires a conscious effort.

[00:23:18] Melissa: I agree, and I think one of the pros of social media is that the older generation or even the current generations are able to see you know, everyone comes from the same community, and they have like different viewpoints. Instead of, you know, just accepting what the colonial powers or the government is saying, you can think for yourself. You can say like, oh, I don't have to accept they were teaching us. There are other ways to believe and act as well.

[00:23:51] Hema: Melissa, on your site, you talk a little bit about the oil and gas industry. Do you want to talk about some of the work that you're doing and conversations you're having around that? 

[00:24:03] Melissa: Oh, yeah, sure. I, um, so what kind of, you know, really prompted my increased social media presence actually was the oil and gas industry in Guyana, and it kind of all happened at a very weird time. I had literally just had my youngest and I was still, you know, waking up every hour, but it was March 2020, May 2020, like the elections were going on.

It was unclear who was winning, but I kept seeing like the U. S. is going to go fly there. They're going to send their Secretary of State. They're going to, they're voicing their opinions. And I thought that, you know, why does the U. S. have such, uh, opinions on this matter. And as this looks a lot like what I just read over the last few years about their interference in the 1960s election.

And so that was really concerning for me that, you know, history was repeating itself. And people may not be aware just because they didn't have access to this information. And so it was, it just became my little job to document all the updates because the newspapers are great at updating, but I never found an article that like gave me a summary, like a whole big overview.

So every day I just sat there and I updated it little by little. And I wanted to put out these articles and let everyone know what is going on. And I also wrote an article comparing the U. S. or foreign influence in Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, because I want people to kind of see that this has happened before.

And maybe if we know similar patterns, we can be better equipped and more educated to seek what we're worth. And the Exxon oil contract, it seems like it was really to Guyana's detriment. And I think that we wouldn't want that to continue to happen.

[00:26:12] Mireille: Yes, I think and wherever in the world, unfortunately, where America gets involved, I think it's important to be wary because it's usually with their own selfish interests, you know, whether it's political or whether it's to reap the natural resources that You know, myself, I'm half Haitian, and what America did to ruin Haitians rice production is, we're still feeling the effects decades later.

[00:26:45] Melissa: I was not aware of the rice production issues, but I definitely want to look into that further. That could be another basis for a article, you know, U. S. and the rice intervention in Haiti and, you know, the oil intervention in Guyana. And there is a very big Haitian population here in Miami. And so it's very relevant to us. A lot of my best friends are of Haitian descent as well. So I'm eager to look into that. 

It's just, I think the more we know, and this is a pro of social media as well, the more that we can ask for fairness, um, it doesn't have to be so secretive like it was a hundred years ago.

[00:27:30] Hema: Social media is a great way to educate people and to find information like this. I mean, that's how I found out about the work that you're doing was through social media, um, because it's something that I was seeking out. So I think it's really important for us to continue to share what we know through whatever sources we can.

[00:27:53] Melissa: Yeah, I'm on the history end with the ships and the oil when I can, but one of the biggest important factors of our culture is the food and that, that it was able to survive through what these people went through. Um, it is just like, I get goosebumps.

It is something that we need to talk about more. We need to eat more. We need to, you know, cook on our own. I saw a video recently of someone saying that, you know, record keeping is not necessary for the food. And she made a good point that, you know, like, if you didn't have access to family cooking it, then a recipe book is, of course, important.

But, you know, how did it survive 200 years with nobody writing it down? Because you watched your parents cook, you ate their food, and you figured it out. And so that was a point that, you know, I resonate on because they travel so far on the ships, they had these awful conditions. But they carry that with them.

And I'm sure, you know, the dhal and rice that we eat now is very similar to what they grew up with. And that is amazing and is similar for metemgee. I think that is a something that's also been passed along as well.

[00:29:17] Mireille: Absolutely. You know, I'm a chef and a food creator and one of my pet peeves, and whether it's my culture or somebody else's, I always say when you disparage a cuisine or, you know, negatively portray that, you're not just negatively portraying a dish, but cuisine is a part of a people's culture. It's a part of a people's history.

So when you disparage their food, you're disparaging. a whole people. 

[00:29:47] Hema: What I find really interesting, what you're saying, Melissa, and I think about this in sort of in terms of my own family who came from Trinidad to Toronto right before I was born. So this, I was born and raised in Toronto, but even that migration changed the foods that we eat a little bit.

So they brought their Trinidadian recipes and adapted it to what was available here in Toronto and in Canada and so maybe the food that I make that I think is Trinidadian that I know is Trinidadian is different than somebody that might make it in Trinidad because we didn't have the same ingredients and so we adapted it and I, you know, I think that's what the indentured servants and the enslaved Africans would have done is take what they know, use what they have and create some delicious food that we can now appreciate today.

[00:30:40] Melissa: Yeah, that that's uh, what I think about when it when I go to an Indian restaurant and they give me curry it is a completely different color and it's not what like the first time I ordered it I was like, this is very different from our curry and I wonder you know like I don't know if you have any insight on that.

How did it change like so….it looks like nothing at all. Is that a different part of India? Like, I don't know. Like our curry is so different.

[00:31:12] Mireille: It is. And I've also done a lot of research into the regional cuisines of India. And a lot of it is regional because most of the food that we get in the West, like at Indian restaurants, it's specifically North Indian. It's mostly Punjabi. Unless you specifically go to a South Indian restaurant and you'll see their curries, um, their abundant use of coconut is vastly different.

So it really does depend what part of India they came from. And how that influenced the food we have in the Caribbean and just from our own research, we've done most of the people seem to have come from kind of central North India to the Caribbean.

[00:32:01] Melissa: And, um, do you know where in India has that dark curry that we have and not like the red, bright curry?

[00:32:09] Mireille: Um, it depends. um, you have, it, a lot of it has to do with roasting the spices, but you also have to understand that our curry, our curries, um, were also influenced by the African people that the Indian came in contact with, you know, like, um, I was just doing some research on Trinidad, and the fact that we add sugar, you know, the browning, like for brown stew chicken and browning, that actually comes to mimic the smokey flavor that comes from red palm oil from West Africa. So that essentially is a fusion dish, even though most people think it just came from India because we had, they have pelau's in India, you know? So you have to realize there are so many influences that caused those recipes to change.

[00:32:58] Melissa: This is so exciting. 

[00:33:00] Hema: There's so much to learn and I'm gonna, I'm gonna confess something to you guys today is for the longest while when I was growing up, I didn't realize that you could make your own curry powder. Cause we always just used the curry powder that was already pre-mixed. And it wasn't until I was much older that I recognized that there was, um, a bunch of spices that you can put together. 

[00:33:24] Mireille: Yeah, but that's another thing. The curry powders of all of the Caribbean tend to use more sweet spices, cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg, things like that. Then the, like the curries of India, they tend to use more cumin, coriander, um, cardamom and things of that nature. Uh, so it just, there's, that's one slight thing that causes the darker color in Caribbean curries.

[00:33:58] Melissa: Oh, now, you know, I'm excited to tell my mom. 

[00:34:02] Hema: Melissa, I don't want to bring you into any controversy, but I do want to ask you, what do you think about when people say Guyana is not part of the Caribbean. It is part of South America. 

[00:34:17] Melissa: I think that's so ridiculous. Like, obviously, like, geography, yes, it's on South America, but you know, it is culturally is what we're talking about. And so we say it's part of the Caribbean. We're obviously talking about culture. Everybody knows geography. And I think if they say that they just want to be ridiculous, you know, Belize is so far away too, but they are so similar to us.

So that's why they are culturally, you know, Caribbean. I don't, I know technically what you would consider the tectonic plate that they're on or the plate that they're on. But people are from the Caribbean because of their culture.

[00:35:00] Mireille: Thank you. I don't want to be controversial, but with my family from Suriname, that is one of my pet peeves.

[00:35:08] Melissa: It's like we all came at the same time, similar timeframe. Um, it is. It is, that is who we are, and I get those comments, you know, so much, people fighting between themselves on, um, my Instagram, but, you know, like, they just want, I don't know what they, they just want attention, but yes, it, Guyana is part of the Caribbean, you know, CARICOM is in Guyana also,

[00:35:37] Mireille: And you know what I find so interesting? The people who will fight the most fervently that we are not part of the Caribbean are non-Caribbean people. I'm like, how are you involved in this argument here?

[00:35:50] Melissa: Yes. I think that literally I've only seen, you know, non-Caribbean people, usually American people jumping in and saying that,

[00:36:00] Hema: I think it's all about culture, and I agree with you in everything that the both of you have said is, you know, as Mireille and I dig more into the history of each country and where the people came from and which countries. came in, took over, colonized. It's all very similar, whether it's Guyana or Trinidad or Jamaica.

And that brings us together to have a very similar and shared culture, which leads to what it all looks like today. So wholeheartedly agree. Guyana is absolutely part of Caribbean, uh, Suriname also. There are other places that maybe are a little bit adjacent. Um, but it does seem to inflame some people when they have that conversation about whether it's, it is, or it isn't.

[00:36:52] Melissa: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting, I think it's interesting that it's even debated, but it's like you mentioned, it's not debated by us as outsiders.

[00:37:02] Hema: I agree. 

You mentioned three children. You are a lawyer. You are a wife. How do you find the balance in doing all of that, right? Which is, life. And then doing all of this other work that you're doing for West Indian Diplomacy and all of the research and keeping up with social media.

[00:37:28] Melissa: Yeah. So like I work during work hours, but I make sure to stop or slow down as soon as the kids come from school. And the history work, that's usually, you know, dawn or late at night. It's just like something that I don't have time for during the daytime hours, but it's something that I can't let go. Like even when I was literally postpartum.

You know, within the three months, still waking up every hour and a half, hour. I, it's just like, I, it's just an internal drive. I've always loved history, but there's something more about like my own history that I just want to make sure that the information's out there. And then now it's nice to know that like, you know, I'm putting this information out there, if nobody else reads it, at least my kids will have it.

[00:38:21] Mireille: That's great. One more controversial question being that you're half Trini and half Guyanese. Is it? Is it chicken curry or curry chicken?

[00:38:31] Melissa: It depends whose house I'm at, right? But I, my mom is a big cook in our family, so I grew up saying curry chicken. But, you know, it's not a hard switch if I'm, you know, like if I'm in New York and like the Guyanese side and say chicken curry. It all tastes good. I eat it all. So, um, I would say, I say more curry chicken, but people have made points like you don't say like, um, like chickens, like you say chicken soup, so you say like chicken curry or things like that.

So I was like, oh, that's an interesting take as well.

[00:39:10] Hema: It, it's one of those things that, again, people like to really be firm in their decision. But either way, as you said, it's delicious, whether you call it, um, curry chicken or chicken curry, I'm going to eat it. So,

[00:39:24] Melissa: Yeah, I'm half and half. So I don't know what side to take. But I usually say curry chicken.

[00:39:31] Hema: So before we wrap up today, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you have a busy day, um, but thanks for taking the time to come on and talk to us. There's so much information that is out there on both your website and Instagram, but if people are looking for more information on the work that you're doing and keeping up with you, where's the best place to find out what's going on with it, with all of your historian work?

[00:39:57] Melissa: Yes, the best place to find out is WestIndianDiplomacy. com. I also have the petition on there. You just have to write your name and click and then, you know, submit the signature. And every month I, you know, I update my update section and I let people know what I've done, what new information I found, um, how many signatures we have.

And I just really hope within the next year or two that we can get this done and finalized so that way it's at least preserved. And then in the upcoming years, people can make sense of the information. What does this all mean? What are the statistics? Um, you know, even if reading that takes some time because they spoke differently than the, the calligraphy, it's going to take some time.

So I want us to start it as soon as possible. I also have my Instagram at West Indian History and my Facebook page as well. And just depending on how much time I have, uh, like, you know, last year I updated every week. The year before that it was, you know, every month. It's just based on my schedule. I update and I put out research as I'm able to, but I'm always going to put out something. Just the intervals may change.

[00:41:17] Hema: Excellent. Thank you so much. 

[00:41:19] Melissa: Thank you so much and thank you so much for this platform for me to share about the petition and I'm so excited to see more work from both of you.

[00:41:30] Hema: Thanks so much. Mireille, what an interesting episode that was.

[00:41:36] Mireille: It is, you know, and I think it's so needed. Like, um, like one of the things she had mentioned was that Suriname has good records. With my family being from Suriname, you know, I have the document online. I just go to this website, I see his record of, um, the ship he took from Calcutta, when it left, the name of the ship, like all the ship information and then his entire bio is basically on there.

 It's called the Hindustani database basically, uh, of Suriname and I, now I realize how lucky and how blessed I am considering Guyana and Trinidad doesn't have that.

[00:42:17] Hema: Yeah, it's, um, you know, really kind of broke my heart when Melissa was saying that she's talked to people who have seen these records in person and they are papers that are crumbling and almost being, like, not being destroyed, but just by virtue of being this old on the verge of no longer existing.

[00:42:40] Mireille: And the lack of care, the fact that they're like on the floor and all that, that, that definitely broke my heart as well.

[00:42:48] Hema: So, hopefully, we will get some more people interested in signing the petition, preserving the records, and making this happen because, as I said during the episode, every single day that passes is one day too long for these records to not be digitized and not be shared and not be available for the general public to see.

[00:43:14] Mireille: Absolutely. So make sure you guys go to her website and click on the petition and sign it.

[00:43:22] Hema: And that's it for us for today's episode. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at The Moreish Podcast. And keep an eye on those platforms as we share bonus episodes and soon we'll be releasing information on season two.

[00:43:42] Mireille: Bye.

[00:43:43] Hema: Bye!

Resources:
Connect with Melissa:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westindianhistory/

Website & Petition: https://westindiandiplomacy.com/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/libraryofwestindianhistory 

YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/@Lawyer_Melissa

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