Cuban Roots: Lisette’s Journey to Havana

Cuban Heritage and Identity: A Journey Back to Havana

Imagine being the first person in your family to head back to your home country in over 60 years. The first to experience the culture and set aside everything you've heard for an an immersive experience, a chance to create memories and form your own opinions.

Growing up as a Cuban-American-Canadian, Lisette Alvarez's journey to Havana, Cuba was like opening a door to the past. The first in their family to go back in over 60 years. Through the lens of this journey, Hema & Lisette explore complex themes of Cuban identity, politics, and cultural heritage, including the racial dynamics of Cuban-Americans and the ongoing U.S.-Cuba relations. 

Hema and Lisette met at the Podcast Movement conference and reconnect in this episode of The Moreish Podcast to talk about Lisette's trip to Cuba and what it's like growing up between 2 cultures.

Lisette shares a bit about their two related podcasts, 'Once Upon a Time in Havana' and the upcoming 'Havana Syndrome,' shedding light on their immersive and personal experiences in Cuba.

Resources

Lisette Alvarez 

Stormfire Productions, Stormfire Productions on Instagram

Podcasts: Once Upon a Time in Havana podcast, Havana Syndrome

Beyond Roots

The Big Cigar

Season 1: The largest island in the Caribbean Sea: Cuba

Transcript

Lisette: I said this in the first kind of social media post that I posted after I got back from Cuba was Cuba is neither the heaven nor the hell people describe it as. 

Music: This is The Moreish Podcast, where Caribbean history meets culture and cuisine.

Hema: Hi, Lisette. Thank you so much for joining me today on The Moreish Podcast.

Lisette: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you again, though unfortunately not in person anymore, but it's great to talk to you again.

Hema: It was interesting the way we met at Podcast Movement in the line waiting to pick up our badges. So literally the first day.

Lisette: Exactly. That was so cool. It was, it really goes to show how important making these connections, especially in various places. I mean, post lockdown, really, conferences in and conventions, it's such a great way to meet new people and connect, especially on topics that people like us who are podcasters are very passionate to talk about.

Hema: It's true. And these like personal connections, can lead to so much more, right? Some people I met at Podcast Movement, I will keep in touch with just because they're amazing people. Some people because we have this wonderful connection and we'll record together. It was my first time attending and it was amazing for the networking.

Lisette: A hundred percent. I've started to get in contact with a couple of people and it's really awesome to see how, we are all supporting and lifting each other up in whatever paths we're going down, even after we said goodbye in person, at least.

Hema: Exactly. Now you have an interesting story and interesting projects on the go. Today we're going to talk all about you and your family's Caribbean connection because that's what makes this I'm recording today together makes so much sense. Before we dive right in, why don't you introduce yourself?

Lisette: All right. Hi, everyone. My name is Lisette Alvarez. I am a Cuban Canadian American. I've spent most of my life living overseas and moving around. I consider myself a third culture kid. I'm currently based, uh, right outside Washington, D. C. in Alexandria, Virginia. And I am a fiction podcast producer, as well as I've, I run a company called Stormfire Productions, which is an audio production company.

I've worked on various sound and audio-based stories, it's been a fun ride so far. I do a couple of, fiction podcasts, one including, urban fantasy called Kalila Stormfire's Economical Magick Services. I also do a, a documentary podcast that we'll talk a little bit more about called Once Upon a Time in Havana and its eventual fictional spy thriller tie in Havana Syndrome. 

Hema:  I love the idea of both the documentary and the fiction. So I'm excited to talk to you about that, but I think we need to start at the beginning, which is your family, Canadian, American, hasn't been back to Cuba for 60 or 70 years?

Lisette: Yeah, um, over 60 years, I believe it, the, the, it's 64. But, my great grandparents and my grandparents left Cuba shortly after the Cuban Revolution. And it's interesting because in comparing to some other people's stories they actually left after being involved as part of the, Communist and, Fidel Castro's, revolution, started to disagree with them. One of my family members was actually imprisoned and then left and, by the, they consider themselves exiles rather than, you know, immigrants necessarily, which is an interesting, kind of political framework to, to look at, and it's something that as a second generation, I'm very interested in why that is, from an academic and personal point of view and how that has affected me and my personal view of my identity and my connection to the culture and eventually my connection to the island, because yes, I was the first person to go back. Not by very long, actually, only a couple of weeks later, one of my uncles and his family decided to visit as well.So it feels a little bit like I helped open the door to return.

Hema: Where did your family move to when they left Cuba?

Lisette: Like many Cubans, who left Cuba after the revolution and since, honestly, to Miami. They landed in Miami, both my grandmother and my grandfather who were not married at the time, but they knew each other, interestingly, when they were in Miami, my grandfather actually ended up being part of building, helping to build and as a, as an architectural engineer, Hialeah, which is considered little Havana in Miami.

So my family almost immediately was, you know, an integral part of the Miami Cuban community, right as soon as they landed. For, for good and, um, for ill, but I could probably talk a little bit about that couple more scandals later.

Hema: You know, there is such a strong Cuban population, but from what I understand, it is a Cuban American population. And we'll get into that a little bit later about the differences that you found in the Cuban American life versus the life that you found when you went back to Cuba. But so you mentioned exile versus immigrant. Tell me about that.

Lisette: I think a lot of it is considered political, right? My great grandfather who voiced a lot of dissent, against the Castro government, after the revolution. He was imprisoned, um, uh, and reportedly tortured while he was there. Seeing himself as really a political detainee, once the family decided to leave, they considered themselves exiles.

They've been exiled on political, for political means. They did not want to leave. I think in a lot of ways too, Cubans and Cuban Americans, specifically Cubans who, who, who went to, Miami, and the United States after the revolution, a lot of the mentality is of that kind of political and economic grievance. And because a lot of them, truth be told, were primarily middle and upper class, and white white or Spanish descendant, who, who left initially. Uh, and this has changed over time because of the makeup of, of Cuba as a multiracial, multiethnic island. So, I think there's a lot to be said about how my family specifically did really begin to align with a lot of the other grievances, even though initially they were supportive of the revolution and of Castro’s actions, they eventually started to see, you know, that and not like how, the like political dissidents were treated how our families …

So there, there's a, a tension in, even in me of looking back to my family, knowing we were actually, pretty privileged being light-skinned, and Spanish descendant, Cubans, middle class, middle to upper class, but also knowing that, on the other hand, there was this, there are what I think are legitimate grievances towards why they decided to leave, in terms of politically motivated violence and incarceration, which I do not agree with. 

I think internally, I have this understanding of the history, both through the incredibly emotional and subjective view of my family, but also from the academic kind of historical view, that I, as, that I have a little bit more space and, and literally time to look back and consider. So yeah, I think that's, that I think is a, it's a messy answer to that question of why they consider themselves exiles rather than immigrants.

Hema: That makes sense, right? Because it was it's not a simple situation that they came from, and it continues to be a messy, for lack of a better word, situation,

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: you know, especially given the U.S.-Cuban relations over the last many years. One of the things you mentioned in your, in your opening was your connection and your, the way you identify.

And this is something that I find really interesting is doing this podcast and talking to many people of Caribbean descent who live abroad and were born abroad, have varying connections to their heritage in their home country. How does that, how does that work for you? How did you pre visiting Cuba feel about your heritage versus how you felt about it after you went?

Lisette: That's a really good question. So I, the first thing that comes up is the conversation I had with a friend of mine who is from Jamaica. She was born and raised in Jamaica, and it was actually in the context of while I was writing Havana Syndrome, right? While I was writing the scripts, I wanted to talk to someone else who is also of Caribbean descent who wanted to have, you know, has, has also kind of complex feelings. Though she has, now, um, she's beginning her process of naturalization in the United States, she was born and raised in Jamaica. 

And one of the things she said, and we talked about a book that I had been reading by, a British Jamaican writer who, was born in Britain, born in England, I believe. And her, she's an academic, like, anthropologist, cultural anthropologist, who was talking about the stories of Anansi, in the context of Jamaican culture. And one of the things that my friend said is, like, you know, the people who are able to comment this type of way, in a very specific type of way, tend to require a bit of that distance, to have a better view sometimes on what is happening. 

That being said, I do also believe that we have our own biases that is also, driven by that distance from that island. And I think part of my relationship with Cuba and the island before visiting was so saturated with the myths, right? With the, with the, um, what I knew second, third, fourth hand about Cuba, and specifically, a Cuba that was often frozen in time for a lot of people pre-revolution.So, and I, and I knew that consciously that this is the, the vision that I've been getting, but what that did end up doing is drive this curiosity of what, and this sense I feel like I'm missing something. I'm missing the, the reality or at least my own reality or my own truth of being in the real physical present Cuba and seeing the real present Cubans and talking to the real present Cubans in modern day. And this is something that I've, I've come across while researching my show is that there are so few modern takes or even modern interpretations or, or television shows or movies that have been set in modern day Cuba. And I think that says a lot about how we see Cuba and what the kind of messages that we get.

And the messages that I was also trying when I ended up confronting, which is, Cuba is neither the heaven nor the hell people describe it as, and that, again, that, that, that, that dissonance, that cognitive dissonance was something that actually, it felt vindicating, right, that I didn't have to lean one way or the other in terms of demonizing the island and its politics or upholding it as a perfect, kind of perfect model of, of post-revolution Caribbean politics. 

You know, I could, I can encounter it for what it is, and that made me way more, connected. It made me feel more connected, especially to the people, because I was able to see and connect with people as they were and what they were saying to me rather than all these layers of gauze of, of, of politics and, and, and popular culture. Um, that I was able to remove that and see it for what it was, was something I really, really wanted to, when I went there, when I was going, the process of going there, I want, that's what I wanted to accomplish. 

I wanted to see it without the weight of my family, without the weight of the embargo, without the weight of, the, the preconceptions of how I should or should not feel about being there. 

Hema: There's so much that I find that people in our situation who were born outside of the Caribbean, but come from Caribbean families have very similar feelings about it. And I will say from myself, you know, I was born and raised in Toronto. My family is Trinidadian and I recognize that I grew up in the Canadian sense in a very Trinidadian household.

But in the Trinidadian sense, I grew up in a very North American household, right? So it's this it's this, you know, mix of we sit in the middle of the two cultures and going back and experiencing the life in Trinidad, which I did all the time when I was a kid, I recognize that I still in the two or three weeks that I went every year, I still didn't live the life and understand it the way that somebody who lives there fully understands Trinidadian lifestyle. But that doesn't mean I'm any less Caribbean. We just have a little bit of distance. So I appreciate you sharing that. It's, it's really quite fascinating to understand how people connect to their heritage and how people connect further down the line, which is what I want to ask you now, you mentioned your family is of Spanish European lineage.

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: So do you consider yourself Cuban, Cuban-American, Cuban-American-Canadian, Spanish? How do you, how do you identify all of those cultures together?

Lisette: Yeah, so, that's hard. I do believe that, I, when, when, in the, in the majority of situations, I receive white-passing privilege. And that is, and white privilege. Especially when it comes to being in other majority, like essentially the majority, majority, like majority of the world is black and brown cultures.I am seen more in the white category in terms of race, which we know is a construct that has real, implications. 

So, I also do feel Cuban in terms of the ethnicity, there is a culture and what I have been very conscious about learning more and being more, being more mindful about is how much of the Cuban culture is grounded in Black, Afro, like specifically West African people, descendants of slaves, their cultures and, Indigenous cultures like Taino, at least the, the, the culture that was, that managed to survive the genocide. And understanding that as someone who actually, I actually lived in Italy as a kid, that was one of the places that we lived. And it turns out actually a decent chunk of that Spaniard heritage is also Italian. 

So when I went, I was able to visit both Italy and Spain and got connected with the cultures there. I felt an affinity to that. So in, in a sense, this is, I know it's very important for, for those of us who are, who do come from European ancestry to, to understand who we were and what we were before we were white. In order to really dissect what we lose when we, essentially when we give up those aspects of culture, for, for the sake of whiteness, for the sake of, of wealth or, or class or what have you. So I think those things are, you know, in my, in my mindset, I want to be very conscious about. 

And so when I look at my own heritage, I see, I see a true mosaic of experiences and the, both by blood and by, by spirit that those ancestors, whether, when I say like Cuban, my, my Cuban culture, I also want to call out, even though I'm not blood-related to West Africans, that they made huge contributions to what we know of as, and what we celebrate as Cuban culture. I think that's something again, like it's, it's in that weird middle of like balance of, I also love Spanish culture and Italian culture. And I connect with that in the various ways that I know how to. I don't claim it for myself. And I find that the respect and understanding and also this great like rich stories of understanding how these cultures bring these pieces of life to light I think is it's a celebration to, accept that there's this whole mosaic of, of origins, at least for myself.

So I guess, again, I, very, like, complicated answer to a very simple question.

Hema: I talked to somebody last season, who wrote a book called Culinary Colonialism and she was researching, from an academic standpoint, cookbooks throughout history in the Caribbean. And one of the things she writes in her book is, I'm paraphrasing, colonization both destroyed and created the Caribbean as we know it, and we cannot go back to pre-colonization times. All over every Caribbean island and country has a story of colonization, has a story of people being brought over forcefully, migrating, brought over as indentured servants, and those cultures mixing and melding into what is the current day culture. 

Lisette: I think this conversation about, the, the origins of Caribbean identity, and I, I see this in my own family in terms of a, a, a resistance or a, or sometimes a romanticization about how we arrived and, and what our, our family story is. I think there is, room to understand why those, those stories are the way they are and also going, trying to go deeper. 

And sometimes that might not mean, that might mean, and that has often meant for me is bypassing my family and going deeper into other sources. As much as I love and adore, and my family has given me a rich exposure to Cuban culture, for, for most of my life, I would say that the, the understanding of of my connection to my own identity at the end of the day falls to me, falls to, falls to me, to, to, to understand and appreciate and support the, the aspects of culture that I want to survive and thrive. 

Hema: It's a choice, right? You've made a choice to really dive deeper and understand your culture, your heritage, and your connection through….

Lisette: Physically going there.

Hema: Let's talk about that. Let's talk about what prompted the visit? And then I want to talk about how you felt when you were there and some of the things that you experienced.

Lisette: There's a lot. So the, the, let's start, well, we'll start at the beginning. I had been writing this spy thriller, Havana Syndrome, as as a project about three years ago. I was about halfway through and we were coming up into December. I had the whole of the month off, essentially. I was not doing anything except for writing. 

And I had a bunch of airline points that I was like, I kind of wanna go somewhere for a writing retreat for, I have five days before I have to, you know, travel elsewhere for, the holidays. So I was thinking, I have these five days that I want to use that, I can, I can essentially fly on, fly on free for the, with these points and so that I can also dedicate time to writing in a different mindset, right, to finish this script. And it's hilarious because I did not initially think of going to Cuba. 

You got to understand, this was 2022, December 2022. Um, this is still pandemic, like there was, there's still waves going on. I had no idea, especially after the Trump presidency, which shut down, what was initially reopened, routes to, flights and routes to Cuba from the United States. So I, I, at that point, I had a vague understanding that even if Biden had reopened, you know, routes to, to Cuba, the pandemic have shut those things out. So I had no idea what, it was not even part of my, my thought process. 

So this is a Friday in Decmeber. And I wanted to leave that following Monday. So that's Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday I wanted to fly out to wherever it is I would go. So I opened up the rewards map, and I start poking around pins and like, you know, just looking at…mostly, I assumed that I didn't have a whole lot of points, but I was like, I can, I have enough to go somewhere in the U. S. or maybe the Caribbean, maybe Cancun, like, but a part of me was like, I don't want to do anything too crazy, I, I see a little pin on Havana. And I'm like, I, I poke the pin, blows up and it says, it said, it says essentially, I have enough points to fly to Cuba on Monday, three days away, and I just go blank. I, I, I'm like, I can't possibly, I can't possibly go to Cuba in three days. Like, you know, with the embargo, with, with like the red tape.

I was like, I couldn't possibly. But in my head, I'm like, but what if I could? So I started digging into research, turns out, for those five days as well, I also went on Airbnb because I'm an American citizen I cannot, book government, most, most of the hotels that are like government run or associated I have to because of the embargo, I can only do like private citizens businesses. I can, I can only engage with, so Airbnb was the way to go. And it turns out for that very five days that I wanted to go, prices were slashed almost 50%. I didn't have a huge budget either. So when I saw that, I'm like, okay, something's telling me it's time to go. And, uh,

Hema: You have to.

Lisette: Uh, it was absolutely that, like, this, it's, the time is now, like, there's the uni it was like the universe shouting in my face, it made me, it still makes me emotional thinking about it, because it was that, that, thought of, like, I, I'd be the first one to go, be the first one back, 

I booked every I, I actually, so I, I texted my, husband first and said, You know, I, I, I think I might, wouldn't it be funny if I went to Cuba in three days and he said, Do it. He said do it and and that was like that extra push of like, okay, I booked the plane I booked the Airbnb then I had to figure out well, okay what are all the what's all the red tape and that's a whole other story. That is a story, actually. I also get into In the show that I do, Once Upon a Time in Havana, the more detailed parts of it.

But for the sake of time, I managed to get there. Like, I look, I scoured the internet for resources because there isn't anything up to date because of the pandemic. So there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of clarity about what I needed to do and how I could get there. But I managed to, to get all my affairs in order, and I was able to go to Cuba in three days, which was, just astounding. And it, as a, I'm a spiritual person and I truly believe that, that trip in particular felt a little, touched by the gods, if you will.

Hema: Yeah. I mean, the fact that Cuba wasn't even on your radar, you were just looking to use your points and go somewhere. 

Lisette: Yeah.

Hema:  And it unfolded the way it was meant to unfold, because not only did you get to go back, be one of the first in your family, or the first in your family in so many years,

Lisette: Yeah.

Hema: make that connection, but you also have your podcast now, Once Upon a Time in Havana, which tells the story in detail of this trip.

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: Um, and so we're not going to get into the details here because we don't have enough time. And it's how, how many episodes is your, is Once Upon a Time in Havana?

Lisette: So it's going to be 12 episodes. It is actively releasing right now, or if you listen to this a little later, you will be able to binge listen to the whole thing. 

Hema: And you'll be able to get all of the details of going through the red tape and all of the emotions and the feelings and the things that you, that transpired when you were over there. And we're just scratching the surface today because there's no way we can get all the way through.

When you, when you were in that planning, your whole three, three days of planning,

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: Did you have any expectations about what was going to happen when you got there?

Lisette: I, so there was, it was interesting because I think on the one hand I was so focused on just being able to get there, just being able to set foot on that soil, that the rest of the time I, I a sense that I wanted to mostly stay within Havana. I wasn't planning on, on necessarily venturing out further out of the city. Um, I only had five days. I wanted to, and this is how I prefer to travel, I prefer to be in one place for an extended amount of time, just so I can soak it in a little bit more. 

I had scheduled, only two events that I, or two excursions. Um, one was a Afro-Cuban cultural exchange tour with the tour company Beyond Roots, who I highly recommend. They are a wonderful organization and company, and the people there are fantastic. 

I also did a, just like a two-hour walking tour of Old Havana with a sociologist from the University of Havana, which was really cool. So that those two things, because when I was looking at things to do, I'm definitely a DIY-er. I don't necessarily like going through travel companies. I like to figure out, I know what I like when I travel and what I like to do. And, and those two, excursion ideas were just, they were a no-brainer for me to connect with while I was there. And then simply have the rest of the trip to play by ear, walk around, to, I did eventually go to the beach as well, um, a beach close by in Havana, in the penultimate day. I was there, but, for the most part, I left the rest of the time, space for me to explore and also to sit and write, of course, a writing retreat.

Hema: When you went to the walking tour with Beyond, Beyond Roots?

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: You, they focus on the Afro-Cuban experience.

Lisette: Correct. So, yes.

Hema: And then, and then the walking tour of Old Havana was, was that more, was that a cultural tour? Was it an architecture tour?

Lisette: Oh. What it was was actually more of a political tour, which I think was fascinating, which talked about the sociological, the mo like it really talked about modern Cuba. Now this is also something to keep in perspective. This is again, winter of 2022. This is right after there were major protests after they changed the currency standards in Cuba, and there were huge protests. It was considered the largest protests in, I believe, decades in, in Cuba. So there was a lot of willingness to talk about the real impact of the pandemic on the Cuban, like the Cuban economics, as well as the embargo and how that has continued to create a lot of suffering in Cuba. As well as it was very kind of a balanced and very clear eyed view of modern day Cuba and how the people, how people were, especially at that time, and still are under a lot of stress. And the reasons, the sociological and political reasons why. And, there was a, a good, I would say a good balance in understanding and it, people could probably say, like, it was kind of a negative tour, I guess, in that sense. for, for me, it was it was more of a clear, what I would say, a more clear, again, it was removing the gauze of what we think people are seeing and saying on the ground, from the perspective of a Cuban who, was also, who's also educated in the sociological, ramifications modern day policy towards and within Cuba.

Hema: You know, we covered Cuba and the history and the national dish in season one so I'll link that in the show notes. But when we covered Cuba, I was saying to my co-host, there's a couple of things that people really think about when they talk about Cuba is the resorts, vacation spot, beaches, and also communism and what you were just talking about with, which is the political situation.

But I don't know that people truly understand it from a people perspective and what that means and what it means for all of the people who left under whatever conditions to go to the U S or other places, but a lot of, a lot of Cubans left to the, go to the U S. And I know you talk about this a lot in your podcast, but can you give us like the high level, what that means?

Lisette: So, the biggest part of this, I think, is understanding that the relationship between the United States and Cuba is, similarly, and I feel that a lot of people don't see Cuba outside of either the romanticized pre-revolution or the concept of communism and the embargo and the political stuff.

Maybe, if possible, the custody case with Elian Gonzalez is maybe one of these other kind of big moments, or Cuban Missile Crisis.

There's some of these things that we understand about Cuba, on a popular culture or a broader level, but there are certain things that in my research that I,I started putting together a picture of what the true impact has been, especially in U. S. policy towards Cuba over the decades. And how Cubans, and I started to mention, I realized I didn't completely finish my thought earlier here, that Miami Cubans feel set apart from a lot of other immigrants in the United States, especially, specifically Latino, Latine immigrants. Cubans were legally set apart from most of these, uh, most other immigrants with the wet foot, dry foot policy. And that was purposeful. That was political. 

Hema: Can you, can you explain that policy for anybody who may not know what that means?

Lisette: So the policy actually was repealed by President Obama in the last, essentially the last year or years of his term, but the wet foot, dry foot policy was a policy that granted any Cubans who went to the U. S. and stepped one foot onto dry land, they would receive protected essentially, temporary protected status, which means that they didn't have to apply for asylum, they were simply because they were Cuban, they were given this privilege of, as soon as, a lot of these Cubans were also found, by the Coast Guard while they were still, still in a boat, right, or a raft, they were often turned around because they had not yet reached dry land. So that, policy had huge ramifications around how Cubans tried to get to usually because the closest point were the Keys from Cuba. 

The other ramification was, of course, even later on, and this is something that the Elian Gonzalez case, and I talk about this more in the podcast, the Elian Gonzalez case was a part of a time after the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a lot of economic pressures because the Soviet Union was the largest supporter of the Cuban economy at the time. So when that collapsed, there was immense economic suffering and physical suffering, and a lot of people decided to leave. 

Um the, the ramification of that is, of course, the motivation to get to the United States they had this special privilege if they were, if they managed to step one foot in. The other cultural ramification, of course, is to the Miami Cubans who managed to get there then they see themselves as privileged, as, as, special in a sense. They don't see themselves as other immigrants. They see themselves as exiles. So there's a, I think there is absolutely a perception, um change, that has, that is, I, the word I want to use is diabolical because it's, it truly does make a, it has a human cost, and I think that's something that I want to make very clear when, when, whether I'm criticizing the Cuban government or the United States government, their policies is about, at the end of the day, it's the human cost to, to this stalemate that we continue for a variety of reasons. And I have my own theories about those reasons, and why they continue, but, I think mostly it boils down to money and power, as do most things.

Hema: You talked, you talked earlier about your, your family heritage, which is European Spanish background

Lisette: Yep.

Hema: but they're also in Cuba is a very large Afro-Cuban population. 

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: Would you say, because you know, Cuban Americans, Miami Cubans being more of the Spanish heritage background, privileged

Lisette: Yes.

Hema:  maybe came from families of means, whereas not as many Afro-Cubans made that 

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: or exiled, made the trip. Is that

Lisette:  A hundred percent

Hema:  would you say that's correct? 

Lisette: Yes, and um, and this is, a part of my, my, historical research and looking back on how much race has influenced U. S. Cuba relations. And there was a, there was actually a document. We have a historical document called the Ostend Manifesto. This was, pre-Civil War, where a bunch of slave-owning, politicians and govern, essentially governors, decided to write up this manifesto saying to the U. S. government that we should, offer to buy Cuba to make it another slaving, slave-holding state from Spain. 

And if Spain refuses to sell Cuba to us, should invade and start a war. Granted, that didn't happen until the Spanish American War, which was after the Civil War, but the, the, the ties between economic control, the, racial dynamics, and the economic, yeah, they, they are absolutely integrated and you actually find this continues on, when you have Cuba as a post-revolution being a refuge to many of our civil rights leaders, and Black Panther, Huey P. Newton, the founder of the Black Panther Party, found refuge in Cuba, uh, during a point of time.

Hema: I didn't know that.

Lisette: There's actually an Apple TV show called The Big Cigar that talks about his escape, of, from the, from US, authorities into Cuba by essentially pretending to be in a movie, or a fake movie was made to hide him and get him into Cuba. And it was called, the cover story was called The Big Cigar. The movie, that was the title of the, this fake movie. 

So that is, that's a whole other story. There's a huge history about, the influence and impact and, and, and connection between US and Cuba that is absolutely through the lens of race. And when it comes to mostly what we know, uh, after the Cuban Revolution, those who were pro Batista and anti Castro tended to be wealthier and whiter, of landholding Spanish descendants is the primary, was the primary population in that first wave. 

Since then, the, the population has been and blacker in coming into the United States. And I think that too affects what you often see as a kind of cultural looking down the nose at the new people coming in. I think there's absolutely a racial dynamic to that, um, as well, because, these are poorer Cubans and more black Cubans who have, or Afro-descended Cubans who have been coming in after that initial wave.

Hema: And then, so that initial wave of people who you said sort of, were set apart from other newcomers to the country, but also had a sense of privilege.

Lisette: Yes, a hundred percent. And I especially a lot of them who are educated, who could speak more English as well, that also, of course, gave them an edge in getting into the job market. 

Um, granted, they were, they encountered racism when they got to Miami. My family has a lot of, stories about the racism and xenophobia that they encountered when, when they came to the U. S. So I think it's interesting that in some ways that doesn't always translate to empathy towards others, I don't understand but I, I, uh, I understand socialogically why that happens.

Hema: You've experienced that, right? And you understand that from the Cuban-American perspective. 

Lisette: Yep.

Hema: And we understand the racial divide and we talk a lot about that in the first episode that I talked about Cuba. When you were in Cuba. Did you find that racial divide?

Lisette: I didn't. It was, it, or at least it wasn't as, it wasn't as stark as, other, I would say, racially segregated areas, even here in the United States. In, in Cuba, at least in Havana, cause I mostly was in Havana, it was very diverse, in terms of the type of people I saw walking around. The other issue to this is though, I didn't see a lot of people walking around. There were a lot of people have left. It felt at least while I was around, it felt like a very empty city, and this is part of the, the, the issue, is most of the people who can leave tend to be lighter skin, have more money, have more, whatever small privilege that they do have or connections or family who's already in the United States. 

I think there is that you can, you can see a little bit more of, well, who, who has managed to stay. Uh, and it tends to be people who don't have anywhere else to go. They don't have the means to go every anywhere else. So I think that's something that to keep in mind when I, and what I kept in mind while I was there. 

That being said, I did visit when I was with, um, the, Beyond Roots tour group, they actually took us into what was known as a historically Afro-Cuban neighbourhood, in Havana. So we, I was able to see a little bit of the different parts of Havana, and especially the area that was known for being, this was the area where, often enslaved Africans were there, and eventually when the Freemen were there, alongside, and this is, you know, this is oral tradition that, the Africans who were, who were stolen and brought over, they actually did have community and this community, this historical, Afro-Cuban neighbourhood was in a primarily Taino community, and they actually made

Hema: Wow.

Lisette: connections and the understanding for, from the people that I…And again, I'll say this is oral tradition. I didn't investigate necessarily the, the, the claims here, but that, Taino people are still there. They just intermarried into the African population, um, a lot of Afro-Cubans do claim Taino as, as their heritage as well. So I

Hema: Interesting.

Lisette: that's something to keep in mind when we think about, that culture. And again, I'm speaking secondhand. I will, I will say up front, I'm speaking secondhand here. This is not my, my community, or, or my story, but it is something that I found counters a lot of the narrative that I hear about Cuba and its Indigenous population specifically too.

Hema: You know, we know much of the history that I learned through my research for this podcast comes from the perspective of the colonizers.

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: Theyb were the ones that wrote the history, who laid down the foundations for what we all believe happened in the Caribbean. And that may not be the full truth. So there is, I, I believe in some of these oral traditions and some of these stories that were passed down into the enslaved population or the Indigenous population, I believe holds some truth.

Lisette: And I think that's one of the reasons why I feel so towards one Beyond Roots and for simply the opportunity to get to Cuba so that I don't think I could have I've never heard of that anywhere else than the mouths of the people who have lived there for generations. So I think that really does matter when we talk about, whether it's, it's being second generation, Caribbean to, to actually also the part of, part of that culture making and culture preserving is by listening to those who have just been there for, for generations and have, have those stories to be told and especially those who have historically been silenced.

Hema: Absolutely. As, as you dig in and as you start to sort of peel back the culture that exists in different Caribbean countries, you can really start to see the influences and in Cuba, the influences from the Spanish, from the U. S., from the enslaved Africans. And that all really can be seen when you put the culture together and you look at it through the lens of the people who, came to the island or brought to the island, which is vastly different than the pre-colonization era, which we don't really have a huge understanding or history.

Lisette: Right, 100%. And I think the tragedy of it. It's interesting because I also just visited Newfoundland and, that was an incredible trip. And one of the other similar stories in terms of, you know, well, we didn't have a whole lot of, like, you know, resources or, or, or history about the Indigenous people, the First Nations who were in Newfoundland, uh, and that they were completely wiped out was the main narrative for a long, long time, and it's only been recently that, uh, we've actually been listening to the First Nations people who are there saying, actually they didn't completely die out. We have evidence that they, they intermarried with our, with, with this, with this First Nation as well so they're still here. The practices are still here. 

And I think making sure that, and I feel like, In a similar way, many Miami Cubans, Cubans who have left, the island kind of treat it as if it's dead. And think that is a disservice to the people who are still living, right? And one of the things that I felt so passionate about when I left was telling people, you need to see it for yourself. You need to visit for yourself. These people aren't dead yet. They're the, the, the island is not dead yet. Uh, but if we keep ignoring it and keep isolating it in the way, whether it's majority of it being politically and economically, literally isolating it, and blockade literally isolating it, but also I think there's a spiritual, emotional, and mental isolation that happens too, that I think is dangerous to a population. 

And I saw it firsthand when, I was the only American I saw for a full, at least a full like 48 hours. I met one group of Americans when I was on the beach and one, one American who is also on my tour, uh, in, for the, for the Beyond Roots tour and, and the, all, the only Americans I met were African-Americans, were Black Americans. And I think that's also says a lot about how we've isolated Cuba as a, as an, as a country, as a culture, as an island.

Hema: I think it's really important for us to not forget these stories. And, and the way we don't forget the oral history and the stories of the Indigenous population of the people, uh, generations ago is to do exactly what you and I are doing, which is do the research, tell the stories as much as we can share it so it doesn't get lost

Lisette: Yes.

Hema:  because once these people are no longer around and living on this earth, we have a choice is to just let history die with them or to unearth it and make sure that it is not forgotten. 

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: The experience of Cubans, uh, of any people from across the Caribbean. And I think it's really important, the work that you're doing, the work that I'm doing.

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: Um, and with that said, I want to talk about your podcast.

Lisette: Yes.

Hema: You know, we've alluded to it a few times here. If people want to know more detail about your trip,

Lisette: Yes. You can currently find Once Upon a Time in Havana anywhere you get your podcasts right now. It is, that is the primary story about my trip to Cuba, um, day to day to day, um, including like right before and right after, and my experience um, in the context of US Cuba history and relations.

So I really do want to make the personal is political. The political is personal in this podcast. So you can find that wherever you get your podcasts. We're also on YouTube, um, at. If you find us online at Stormfire Productions as well, you'll be able to find links to that show. 

The big project that is coming up right after it, that will be premiering this Thanksgiving, um, is Havana

Hema: American Thanksgiving, not Canadian Thanksgiving.

Lisette: Yes, thank you. I should know better. I am half Canadian, so, yes, American Thanksgiving, uh, November 28th, is going to be the premiere of the first episode of Havana Syndrome, which is the spy thriller and alternative reality game. 

This is a very ambitious project. It's very personal, um, uh, it's about, it's about a sibling who has gone AWOL from the CIA, and her two siblings have to go find her, uh, and track her down. So this is a, um, story that this is inspired by the real life conspiracy theory / mystery of Havana Syndrome, which is the mysterious sound that has plagued military, uh, spy and, you know, state officials around the world, but specifically in Cuba.

After they hear a sound, they, they experience dizziness, vertigo, um, essentially cognitive issues after they hear this sound. So nobody knows whether it's a weapon or it's mass hysteria. Uh, it's a, it's a fascinating little concept. I decided to harness it, one, as someone who is Cuban-American and wanted to explore, uh, the lens of identity and family history in Cuba as a Cuban-American, as well as someone who works in audio. Of course, I am fascinated by an audio-specific mystery, so I've decided to create this. 

It'll be a 12 episode series, start beginning releasing on November 28th of this year through uh, February of next year. There will be puzzles involved too. There's going to be, um, uh, a hidden RSS feed. There's going to be, disappearing voicemails. It'll be a fun, it's going to be a fun project.

Hema:  A very ambitious project, both from a creator perspective and knowing the work that goes into it behind the scenes of an audio project, so I'm really excited for people to get a peek into that this fall.

We're going to leave links to Lisette's production company, her podcasts, website, all of the things down below. I'll leave some links, to the tour companies you talked about, and then the first episode that we did on Cuba, so you could tie it all together. 

And Lisette, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. This has been fascinating and you've opened up so many more things that I want to learn, which I can just do through listening to your podcast, Once Upon a Time in Havana.

Lisette: Thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation and you're doing such important work. I will have to say that, meeting you in person was also a delight. So I hope that that could potentially happen again. Um, and

Hema: Yay.

Lisette: I wish you and, and your audience well, and I hope this was a, was, was a good story to listen to.

Music: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Moreish Podcast. Connect with us on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok at themoreishpodcast. See you for the next episode.