Book Talk: Caribbean Culinary History with Keshia Sakarah

A Deep Dive into Caribbean Culinary History with Keshia Sakarah

In this episode of The Moreish Podcast, host Hema chats with Keshia Sakarah, a self-taught chef, food writer, and educator of Montserratian and Barbudian descent. Based on topics raised in her first book Caribe A Caribbean Cookbook with History they explore the rich history of the Caribbean and its influence on contemporary food and culture. From the Indigenous names for each nation, unique ingredients used in everyday cooking and a plethora of recipes, the conversation celebrates the diverse and resilient heritage of Caribbean people and cuisine.

The discussion delves into Keshia’s personal connection to the Caribbean, the immigrant experience in her home in the UK, and the evolution of traditional recipes. The episode provides enlightening insights into how Caribbean cuisine maintains its authenticity while adapting to new environments. 

Connect with Keshia
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About the book Caribe by Keshia Sakarah (US RRP of $45)

Episodes referenced in this episode
Exploring Caribbean Culinary History with Keja Valens

Transcript

Keshia: ​​ I think ultimately I just felt like it was time just to have it recorded and have that open conversation, but also share the conversation almost like that's happening in the house, outside of the house.

Because in the community we know we exist like this and we are aware of all of our textures and flavours and, and layers and on all of the things. But strangely,  I guess this is an unfortunate effect of colonialism.  We're often seen very one-dimensional. 

Hema: Hi Keshia. Thank you so much for joining me today on The Moreish podcast.

Keshia: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Hema: We, on the podcast talk about the history of the Caribbean and how that history really relates to current day food and culture, and as I was doing some research, it turns out that you wrote an entire book about it.

Keshia: I did. I love all the sticky notes I see poking out there.

Hema: Oh my gosh. I've, I have lots of things tagged, but I also have lots of recipes that I wanna try that I haven't made myself.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: So your book has added a lot of things to my to-do list.

Keshia: Nice.

Hema: Before we dive right in, can you introduce yourself?

Keshia: Yes, of course. So my name's Keshia Sakara. I am a self-taught chef, food writer, author now, educator, and I guess anthropologist a little bit now 'cause of the book. I studied food at college and university, but not in the chefy culinary sense. I just did a food degree.

Um, but my actual practical skills, I really learned myself. I've had a few different entrepreneurial ventures. I used to have a space called Caribe based here in South London. And I'm of Montserratian and Barbudian descent, which are very small islands. 

So when I was developing the menu for that, I knew that I didn't want jerk on the menu on purpose, so I could really broaden that perspective and awareness of Caribbean food. Because here in the UK it's quite Jamaica- centric, even though we populate the diaspora here with many islands, St. Lucia, Barbados, Trinidad, Grenada, and so on. So that really inspired me to kind of delve deeper through my travels and the people that I know to share broader food from the islands.

And then that led into this book and the book took on its own life. And here we are.

Hema: Here we are. You said that you're currently in South London. Is that were you grew up?

Keshia: No. So I actually grew up in Leicester. So Leicester is a hundred miles north of London in the centre, East Centre, East Midlands of the UK, and there is a very small Caribbean community. It's really tight knit. 

My grandparents came in the late fifties, early sixties, which we now know as the Windrush period, for those who aren't aware of our history and connection to the islands. During that time, it was like following the second World War, and communities from the current British colonies, at that time, came over as part of that rebuilding period. And what they knew of the UK versus what they experienced were obviously very different. They experienced a lot of discrimination, a lot of racism.

So that was my grandparents. My parents were born in Leicester, they met there and then so was I. So we are three, four, some families, even five generations deep in this country now. Um, but I moved to London years ago and there's a bigger Caribbean community here. Actually the majority of Caribbeans that live in the UK are in London.

So my experience here with the community is just even richer, even broader. And I love it 'cause I just love my culture, so…

Hema: You mentioned, what your Caribbean connection is, but can we talk about that a little bit? So, which, which members of your family are from which island?

Keshia: So my mom's side is Montserratian. In both par…. both my grandparents were born in Montserrat. They were together before they came here. My granddad came first. My grandma followed him afterwards. And then same on my dad's side actually. And they are Barbudian. So it's um, quite funny and random that I'm from the smallest islands or one two of the smallest islands are either of my sides because every single time I explain where I'm from, people look at me like, where is that? Never heard of it. 

So they are two tiny islands off of Antigua. Montserrat, now has a population of probably 2000 because, for those who don't know, in the early nineties around like 95, 96, the volcano, Soufrière Hills volcano erupted, and the pyroclastic flow covered two-thirds of the island. So it's actually no longer inhabitable, the southern part of the island, which is really sad.

 So where my grandparents grew up, my grandfather and grandmother is no longer, just doesn't exist anymore. The northern part of the island is the only part you can go to. 

And then Barbuda is just so small. It's essentially one village. They are both beautiful in their own rights. Very small, but very special.

Hema: When you first went to the Caribbean, your first visit was, I think you said around own age 11?

Keshia: Mm-hmm. Yep. Went to Barbados first. So we went to Barbados, because my mom's brother, my uncle, married a Bajan, but again, like first generation. So her parents came from Barbados, they met in Leicester, they got married, and they moved back. So we went to visit them and that was my first time actually seeing the Caribbean in any form actually.

And I remember it, and I had a lovely, lovely time. And it just started to connect the stories and the nostalgia that my grandparents often described because I spent a lot of time with them. And it, it, it set the thread, but it didn't really hit me until 14 when we went to Montserrat for the first time.

And I remember very specifically, very vividly, we went to like this lovely little cafe and we had breakfast, but on my plate was like saltfish, dasheen, yam, sweet potato, green bananas. And it was a very wet day. And Montserrat is very, it's like Dominica, it's very thick, it's very hilly, it's very lush, and it was a wet day.

So imagine everything is just like, all encompassing around you. And I just, it just, everything just connected in that moment, on that plate. And I just remember thinking, I like it here, and I get what they're saying now. And then, yeah, the rest is history really.

Hema: You, you talk about, growing up in this smaller community that still had very much a Caribbean community. What did that feel like? You, you kind of described it just a moment ago, but what did it feel like growing up in the Caribbean family and experiencing that life and then being there? Did you see similarities, differences? Was it, was it just easy for you to be in the Caribbean?

Keshia: Um, so with, it's a funny one. I guess this is like that immigrant experience. So I've, I've only ever presented or been aware of my culture in a positive way. So all of the memories that my grandparents spoke of, of Montserrat, 'cause I'm, when I speak about my grandparents it's mostly my mom's side, was always positive.

They always spoke about it with this sense of, you know, we would do this and we would do that in comparison to where we are now. And they would always say ‘back home’. So imagine when you're hearing this term, you're just like, okay, so if that's back home, what is this? Do you know what I mean? And especially if one is sunny and warm and green and bright and they say it with this real height in their voice and tone, and then we are here and it's a cold, wet day, it just, it obviously doesn't make sense.

So in that sense, it was very positive for me and I felt like I had, I just felt like I knew it and I felt like I had this real awareness. 

But going, you can't beat obviously a firsthand experience. And obviously I didn't necessarily know this at 14, this is me speaking as an adult on reflection. But that first trip to Montserrat, just starting to feel those threads of the things that they said, really just starting to feel a bit more visceral and real for me. So going over the years just fueled this curiosity and excitement because I just love the fact that I'm eating foods that I love, that they, we talk about at home, that we eat at home anyway.

I can see people that look like me and I feel like I blend in here and, and everybody's, everybody. There's no, there is elements of, but still everybody's, everybody generally speaking. But again, with that whole diaspora experience, you do feel, you do feel a sense of difference as well.

And you do feel like that's where that third culture comes in. Do you know what I mean? Because of my accent and because of the clothes that I wear and because I visibly do look like a tourist. So then you start to feel like you almost float in between because you aren't fully one of either in some ways.

Hema: It's an interesting experience. I mean, you talked about the Windrush generation. I was born and raised in Canada and my parents came to Canada during a very similar, um, in the seventies during a very similar sort of situation. Canada is still part of the Commonwealth, and it was people being brought over here to fulfill a need. 

So we, we have that interesting experience, you and I of growing up in, in our house in, in a Caribbean household, in a different country.

But you experienced something that you talk about in the book that I haven't, which is Caribbean Court?

Keshia: Oh, so Caribbean Court, it's not like a, it is not like a legal court. It's, it was just a centre for, it had an acronym actually it was the West India W-I-S-C-P. So it was the West Indian Senior Citizens Project. And um, it, 'cause if, just for context, if my grandparents came to Leicester from Montserrat, which I always thought was crazy how on earth they found such a tiny city in the center of East England from such a tiny island.

But again, they went where the work was. They might have known someone that says, yeah, come here, this here, that connection and, you know, that was that, in comparison to coming to London. So for context, if they came in the late fifties to early sixties, by the time I was born in the nineties, they were obviously elderly and there was a big generation of elderly Caribbean people that had very specific needs.

They obviously were older, but there were certain cultural sensitivities that they naturally still required because by the time they had come to England, they were my age or if a little bit younger. 

So Caribbean Court was special because, you know, if you didn't have a big family or didn't have a supportive family, you could go there to socialize, you could get lunch, but you would get food that you would relate to. So there'd be saltfish for lunch and all of the things that we love. They would play dominoes. 

So I remember when I was very little, 'cause I spent a lot of time with my granddad especially, him and other elderly Caribbean gentlemen just sitting around tables slamming dominoes, and I would just sit and watch.

So that was a very special place because I think it, I just got to see the many elements of our community through different eyes. 

Hema:  Yeah, it sounds very special as I was reading about it, and hearing that there was that sense of community through this, I'm gonna call it a community centre but that sense of community where people could go and experience and be around people from the Caribbean is

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: very special, especially given the time. It's now you would find things like that all over the place,

Keshia: Mm.

Hema: but back then, were they as prevalent?

Keshia: It's true. It's true, it's true actually. And you know, it is funny 'cause even just explaining it now, you know, sometimes when you are, you experience something and it's just there, you naturally not take it for granted as such, but don't have awareness of how special or important integral it was or is.

Um, even just describing it now then I realize how, how integral that must have been for them to go and do some of the things, not all, that they just know and that they're used to, even though they are so far away from what they call as home. So, yeah, very special.

Hema: One of the, the quotes that I pulled up from your book was, "I've made peace with the layers within my identity.", and I feel like that sort of speaks to some of the things that you were talking about growing up in your childhood and where you are now, I'd love

Keshia: Hmm.

Hema: for you to expand on that a little bit.

Keshia: So it kind of taps into what I said previously about feeling like we float in between both. We don't fit fully into either. And, to elaborate on that, you know, I didn't grow up in the Caribbean. My accent is very British, I haven't lived that full experience of having to walk to school in the heat, in my uniform, all of that. Do you know what I mean? 

Equally, I have been raised here and I have experienced levels of discrimination and racism and just the difficulties of growing up in the West and especially in the UK 'cause it a very different experience, the UK vs the US versus parts of Europe and so on. 

But still, even though I am British-born and I have a British passport, the wider environment around me often reminds me that I am not fully British in certain scenarios. So, I just had to make peace at some point with that. 

That is actually, as we said earlier, like a third culture of having a bit of both and however that shows up for you because, through that first, the set, the first two trips anyway, and just as I've gone and visited the islands as I've gotten older, more and more and more, and the way I submerge myself and keep myself connected to my culture, definitely through food, the fact that I'm so involved in Carnival up until this day and I always have been in my life, also lets me know that even though you are born in the UK and you do have this accent, for example, and dress this way and all the things, I am as cultured or as quote unquote Caribbean as I feel and as I want to be and as I engage in, and that's fine. And there are many people that are like this and, um, just why reference Carnival is because when I do engage in that space is probably when I feel the most at home because it's the music and food that we share, like at camp and just making costumes and stuff like that. Even though you could, you could live in the islands and not engage in Carnival.

When you are outside in the diaspora, you tap into those things to stay connected and that's where I feel it the most. So, just actually acknowledging all of that and the breadth of that has allowed me to make peace with all of that.

Hema: Food has seemingly been a big part of your life for your whole life. And, and I, I chuckle when I say that because I think as Caribbean people, food is a big part of our lives. Full stop period.

But you in your book about prepping food with your grandfather and his chores, and baking with your grandmother and really kind of being involved in food as a, from a young age, even to the point that you said you were reading cookbooks or looking at pictures, watching cooking shows on TV.

I remember, as a kid watching the cooking shows, that was on public television. We didn't have Food Network back then. But what is it about food that you think that really you gravitated towards from a young age?

Keshia: I think I, I like to eat, first of all, my mom's always told me from a little, from from when I was a baby, my moods were very dependent based on how well fed I was. And I think that's true till this day. So I think there's a part of that. 

And I'm just, I'm naturally just very creative and I just think it's kind of chance and coincidence as well of based on what I was exposed to, because I don't remember a very particular time when I said, oh, I really like this. I just always remember liking it and always remember enjoying it and always just remember being around it. And I think because it was probably presented to me in a relatively positive way, I was able to just embrace it.

If I'm being totally honest, there wasn't a, a real moment of reckoning that I can remember. Cause for context, by the time, like I have quite a big family and I'm one of the younger grandchildren, so by the time I was born, my grandparents had retired, so they were also kind of living their best life and just chilling, relaxing, whatever.

So they would go to the allotment a lot and I would just be with them. So I was just involved in that. And I've always been active, I've always liked to be creative, so those things were just there and I liked them. And picking peas, planting corn. That was fun to me. And then if we were at the house and then we would shell the peas that we picked. So we'd boil the potatoes that we just harvested or we'd make, um, Eve's Pudding for Sunday dinner with the apples, 'cause there was a apple tree on the allotment. 

So for me, these were just fun activities, as far as I was concerned. And I got fed happy days and I think it just kind of evolved from there.

Hema: When you say allotment, is that like a community garden?

Keshia: Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. So you have your own plot and then you do what you want with it. 

Hema: And it's not at your house. It's somewhere, somewhere else.

Keshia: Yeah. No, you go to it. Exactly. So there's other people with plots and everybody pays their little bit and then you do what you want with your bit of ground.

Hema: There was something in the book that you talked about where you say that you realized through your travels around the Caribbean that the food in, that you grew up with in the UK is no less authentic.

Keshia: Mmmmm.

Hema: Can we talk about that? There's a lot of people that say, if you didn't grow up in the Caribbean, you can't claim it, and it's not the same,

Keshia: mm

Hema: and I recognize it's not the same. I didn’t grow up in Trinidad, which is where my family is from

Keshia: Mmm

Hema: but the fact that you're talking that it's no less authentic, I'd love to hear more about that.

Keshia: So that part came in because I remember me and my agent were having a conversation just again about identity and culture and stuff like that. And, um, you know, I think it's almost like it kind of taps into that like, diaspora war discussion, when we say, like, as you just said, like who gets to say what's right on the things and, and, and so on.

And ultimately, no matter what I cook or say about food, it's always going to be from my eyes here, because this is where I was born and raised. Now, so ultimately it comes to, it comes down to intention and what I'm trying to communicate with that thing. 

So to answer that question, but through the book, all of what I've written in there is based on my experiences, the conversations I've had with people, the research that I've done, as close to what I can find as traditional as possible.

Because the intention is there is to inform, is to educate and is to celebrate. So in that sense, it is no less authentic because I think there's a clear understanding of what the messaging is. And I think through that it allows us to reflect, and show that we don't come in just one shape and that we have evolved in the sense of, because we've migrated and we've moved.

And I think sometimes, 'cause I have this conversation as well from a different angle with cousins and family members who grew up in, in the Caribbean, like Barbuda or Montserrat, and have come to England now, and then their eyes on us and what we do here and it's almost the conversation in reverse where we have to show them that we fully identify with this experiences just from the other side. And there has to be space to see that as well basically.

Hema: One of the things I really love about, about your book and people like you who are doing this research and doing a deep dive and writing down the stories, the history, and the recipes is, our grandmothers, our great-grandmothers didn’t write the recipes. Everything was passed down orally, and that was in a large part because reading and writing wasn't something that they knew.

Keshia: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. 

Hema: A lot of older generations learned by seeing and doing and learning and just remembering.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: I, it sort of sometimes feels to me like if we don't continue that oral tradition, but we have these written traditions, that we're not going to lose the memories because I feel like sometimes it is at a risk of getting lost.

Keshia: 100%. For me, I feel like we, if we're not careful, we end up contributing to our own erasure. And that for me is so scary because for many reasons, firstly, my great-grandmother, so my grandma's mom couldn't read or write. So the very fact, even just for me personally, that I've published, this is just crazy because there's only three generations between us, but that also solidifies like the necessity of this.

And I know there are many other families that have that, and probably closer, like it could be a grandparent. And that, and again, we know that for many reasons because of our history, because of accessibility, because of a lot of the things that we experience. So for me, it's integral because one, we have such large diaspora communities, whether that's Canada, the States, the UK, and other parts of Europe.

Our culture is so rich and there's so much about it that we love anyway, then I feel like we just have to be intentional about recording it because we see so many bits of it taken and repurposed elsewhere. Um, and also I know I am the way that I am because of the experience I had directly with my grandparents, and they're not here anymore.

So my children, that I don't have yet, but one day, won't get that through them. Obviously my mom and dad are here, but my children won't get it through them. So there has to be something because they're gonna show up in the world melanated for sure. And they need to know why. And I think it's through this that will allow them to get at least a taste of that because they won't get it from the source like I did.

We can go back as much as we can, absolutely, but they are gonna be here. And if they don't have that foundational understanding, then that really can affect your sense of self. And I think that that's just really important.

Hema: I did an episode with Keja Valens who wrote a book about some of the very first cookbooks, um, in the Caribbean. And I learned through her that a lot of the very first cookbooks were actually written by European women.

Keshia: Wow.

Hema: They were writing recipes of the food that the enslaved people were feeding them.

Keshia: That's crazy.

Hema: And so those first recipes were actually not even, I'm gonna say our own, they were interpreted by other people.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: And, and for the very reason that you said that most of the enslaved people, the indentured servants couldn't read and write. 

Keshia: Absolutely. That they weren't allowed. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, it's funny because we still in some ways see that when we see our recipes appropriated, when we see that they're copied and we're not acknowledged. 

And I think that's why for me, I had to be really bold with this because I know that I could have done a lot of more, let's say, accessible recipes, but I just didn't want to because I just feel like I'm not contributing positively to the conversation when it comes to like culture and identity, in that sense. Listen, things evolve. So I don't wanna diss that. 

But in terms of like preserving history and really cementing traditions, it had to be like the stuff that we know we eat, that we know we love, and that's why there's chicken feet in there and there's a soup with a fish head, like all the things, because that's what we do. That's what we love, that's our culture. And if they aren't recorded as they are, they will literally disappear.

Hema: It is true, these are things in your book, you've written recipes, I mean, there's 125 recipes, so there's a lot.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: You've written recipes with these authentic ingredients that, for the North American some European palette, would be unusual. And these are things for me, I know growing up that I had to hide

Keshia: Mmmm

Hema: because it was unusual and because you’re to assimilate and not stand out and be different.

Keshia: Yeah.

Hema: and because I look the way I look

Keshia: Yeah,

Hema: back then in the seventies, people didn't understand

Keshia: yeah,

Hema: the way I look and being from the Caribbean.

Keshia: That's another reason why it was so important to go into the detail about it. You know, like someone might eat a roti or have doubles, but not even appreciate how and why they got there. And if they knew that, then they wouldn't think it's weird that you can be Caribbean look the way you look. You know what I mean? Because the two couldn't exist without each other. 

So. I just, I think ultimately I just felt like it was time just to have that, just to have it recorded and have that open conversation, but also have share the conversation almost like that's happening in the house, outside of the house.

Because in the community we know we exist like this and we are aware of all of our textures and flavours and, and layers and, and all of the things. But strangely, I guess this is an unfortunate effect of colonialism, but we are often seen very one-dimensional. So to be Caribbean, you just must be a certain look or a certain hair texture or something like that.

So I think through the food that's gonna just break that hopefully and just show actually there's Portuguese, Lebanese, Syrian, and all the above in this small space of the world. 

Hema: This book, what I really love that you've done is you haven't started with the times of colonization, but you've gone before that and for every country you give the Indigenous name.

Keshia: Mm. Yeah, definitely had to. Yeah.

Hema: Why was that important to you?

Keshia: Because it, our, our history didn't start then, and our experience there didn't start then. And, and I think two things. If I only gave the names we know the islands as now, then it almost suggests, or it almost feeds into that narrative that the world is the way that it is because of what Europe has done and, and the choices and decisions Europe has made.

And I think that's just anti-everything that I am. So I just knew I couldn't do that. And also there was just something, it was just another subtle educational note in there, want to acknowledge those communities that were fundamental to the Caribbean being what it is, even though a massive amount of the population isn't there anymore.

We probably wouldn't understand cassava, for example, if it wasn't for their knowledge. I think it's just like a, a nod to them and their awareness and their own systems of, for want of a better word, their science and their mathematics or whatever, I can't find the words, but just for the fact that, I can't remember which island name it is, but it translate to ‘tall is her body’ or, I think Montserrat is named after a type of lizard that's found there.

So for me, it kind of just really reflects their awareness of the space. And that's why I felt like this can't, it just cannot not go in it basically.

Hema: Yeah, it's, so much of the conversation starts with the quote unquote discovery

Keshia: Mm,

Hema: goes from there. But there is a whole history to Caribbean prior to that happening, there were people there, there were whole communities there. And I agree with you to not include that is to forget a whole part of our ancestry, our history, our our culture.

Keshia: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hema: How long did it take you to research this book? Because there's so much information in here.

Keshia: And there was so much that didn't get it to go in there. I, I genuinely feel like it could have been two, but oh, it's all good because I think there's also something special about this having one big thing. So I, it, it would've worked well either way. 

I actually started this at the end of 2019, but unfortunately, when I submitted it to publishers first, they just weren't ready for it, weren't willing to take a chance on it. And I just think that, the publishing world is, if we're talking about class, it's very middle class. Not that that's language I personally use. And it's very British. It's very white.

So when it comes to acquiring work like this, it's just, it's, it's almost like oil and water in terms of understanding. 

So that's why that wasn't successful the first time. And I think also that what I have learned as well, whilst it is a business, the industry has to be ready to receive that sort of information.

And because it is so bold, I can say this on reflection now, I'm glad that it happened when it did, because it's allowed it to be what it is. 

So sorry to answer your question, I started in 2019, was declined the following year, but when we, I got my deal next in 2022. So from then, three years like as in solid research and travelling and stuff like that.

I'm glad that it, it actually took that time because a lot more life has happened for me. I've just obviously evolved and matured as an individual and as a result of that, there's so much more in there that wouldn't have existed before because I have become a lot more confident in the message I wanted to give it. And I don't think I would've been able to write that then myself, even when I had this idea. So, long story short, nothing happened before it's ready anyway.

Hema: Yeah, it came out at the time that it was supposed to come out.

Keshia: Exactly.

Hema: Did you find, you know, doing this podcast, some of the challenges that I find in research is so much of what is written is from one perspective,

Keshia: Mm.

Hema: and it’s not from our perspective, it's from the colonizer's perspective, which, to me, is not the information that I want to impart. It is a part of the story, but it's not a well-rounded story.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: So how did you overcome that?

Keshia: I, I think for me, the whole time I've been writing this kind of what we said earlier about like recording our work and having our stories there in stone for future generations, I always reminded myself of the bigger purpose of this, and that was to inform and to empower us first. 

So yes, a lot of the things that I read, it was just even the language alone. Just like I will always say enslaved, for example, and if that isn't the language you used, and if it's said the other way around for me, that that's just a bit problematic for me. 

So when I would read stuff like that, I would just… just focus on the broader purpose and just flip it in a way that was empowering for us in terms of how I then communicated that message ultimately.

So that's why, because obviously it is a cookbook, but equally it could have just been a regular book with recipes the other way around. I think that's why when you read it, it doesn't feel like you have been slapped over the head with a massive history book and that it actually, the information is quite, is powerful and it's potent, but it still lands in a way that's quite soft and delicat, because I think I centre us first and just how I've presented that with my language, because I'm also so aware of our experience and our history beyond that time.

Hema: I wanna ask a question that has come up quite recently, um, but I get comments like this all the time, which is the use of the word colonizer.

Keshia: Mmmm

Hema: Some people really take offense to that, and they, they feel like we're placing blame or pointing fingers. It is a word that I use intentionally

Keshia: Mmm-hmm.

Hema: because I'm not just saying Europeans

Keshia: MMmm

Hema: because it is also a term that represents what happened during that timeframe.

Keshia: mm.

Hema: I'd love to get your take on, on that word.

Keshia: I mean, I think it is, it's a fact. So I don't, it's not something that I personally don't feel uncomfortable using it where it's necessary, especially, I'm speaking about that time because it reflects, it reflects a time in our history, it reflects decisions, it reflects where we are now. Because if that didn't happen, if those choices weren't made, we wouldn't be where we are.

And it also reflects, well the consequences of that time reflects the experience that we have today. So I think, which we unfortunately still have to live in some ways. So I think sometimes we do have to get with the uncomfortable stuff to get out the other side, so to speak. 

So for me, by not personally, so this is no judgment to anyone else, but by not almost like calling a thing a thing, you're not able to just see something for what it is and actually acknowledge all the parts of a puzzle that creates the experience that we are currently living in.

It would be different if, let's say, that was such a period of the past that we've come out the other side and it's no longer relevant to today. But because it is, I think it's very important that we say things and describe them for exactly what they are because it was such an abhorent time.

Hema: In that conversation I had with Keja Valens who I, I referenced earlier, the sentiment that she says in, in a part of the book is that, this time period of colonization completely changed the Caribbean. And there is absolutely no going back to pre-colonial times.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: But we, we, our ancestors have created an entire new culture, a new set of foods, a new way of living. It's it to me, even though it was a terrible time.

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: To think about the resilience of the people to create what they have created all across the Caribbean, to me, is a beautiful thing that came out of a terrible thing.

Keshia: A hundred percent. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I like to use saltfish as a good metaphor for that because, for those who don't know, saltfish is an imported product. Still is, but it's become so integral to our eating culture because of that time, and it was essentially produced specifically, literally, specifically to feed those on plantations, to feed those who were in forced labour.

But we've managed to retain that and cook it and enjoy it up until this day, and the very way in which my great-grandmother would've shown my grandma, she showed me, and we still eat it now. 

Hema: I pulled out this quote from your book that I want to talk about, you say, "Caribbean cooking is complex with layers and ideas steeped in tradition from the multitude of cultures that have contributed to it due to its colonial past". And I feel like that's such a powerful statement when we talk about our food.

Keshia: Yeah. Because there are so many contributions from people and groups and kind of like what we said earlier about, using the word colonial and, and, and any variant of that. We can't have one without the other. We, we wouldn't even exist as a culture or a heritage if it wasn't for that period. 

So whilst it was unfortunate and, and horrendous events took place. It's not about necessarily reframing it, but things do evolve. And as a culture we have come as an and as a community we've come out the other side with this new identity, 'cause Caribbean-ness, so to speak, wouldn't have existed only 400 years ago. So it is relatively new in the grand schemes of civilizations, but there's a sense of, there's clearly within us a sense of peace with where we are at because we are very aware of how we've come to be and why we've come to be. And, but within that, because there is so much vibe and essence and energy in our culture that we enjoy and celebrate so much, there's also no shame as well.

And I think that's why we are able to acknowledge all of the parts and groups of people that have contributed to that. Because I guess on this side, it is what it is. We are where we are, we exist now, and that that's all we can do because we aren't, it's, we are where we are not by our own choices, essentially.

Hema: In your book you weave in so wonderfully little bits of education. You know, you talk about, breadfruit, for example, and how breadfruit made its way to the Caribbean

Keshia: Mm-hmm.

Hema: and is now such a big part. You talk about saltfish and how it made its way to the Caribbean and why, but it's been embraced. One of my favourite things to eat, by the way.

Keshia: Me too.

Hema: You, you also talk about peas and beans, and the enslaved people having brought it over on their journey. I'm purposely being vague because I want you to talk about this, is how it made its way how these peas and beans made their way over.

Keshia: So based on what I've read, and I've heard this before, I researched it, but it is said that, and specifically black-eyed peas actually, that they would be braided into people's hair or worn as necklaces. Almost as like a, a weird rite of passage and a passing on of something, but at the same time ensuring that you had something to eat and that you had something to grow and you had something to continue.

And I guess this is not something that I, I could fully confirm, so I'll be light how I say it, but at this point there must have been some awareness of going to this place of unknown and needing something to carry with you and to ensure that you're gonna be sustained, that you're gonna have something to eat, that you're gonna have something to continue that you are familiar with.

So there's something very special about that, but there's also something quite scary about that in terms of just the massiveness of that unknowing. And yet those small decisions has have allowed us to still eat and enjoy rice and peas, especially black-eyed peas, in this example today, I just found that fascinating. So it just had to go in there.

Hema: I've heard rumblings of, of things like that before, but as I was reading it in your book, it occurred to me how the thought process of weaving these into your hair or wearing them as necklaces, the darkness of the reality that you will  need this for sustenance,

Keshia: Mmm-hmm.

Hema: and what they may have been told or what they may know in order to prepare in that manner.

Keshia: Absolutely. And then just to add to that, because this is where, and again, why it's important to record stuff and obviously we can't go back to record for that time. And also culturally, we do share our history orally so there is two things at play there. But for example, I dunno about you and your family, but I feel like generally speaking as Caribbeans, when you're cooking, you never just cook enough. You always have a lot in a pot just in case someone passes by. When you're feeding people, you're never short on portion sizes. Do you know what I mean? You want someone to feel full, feel good, loved all of the things.

So even just saying this now and honestly this is just coming to me now, it kind of taps into that as well. This idea of making sure you're good and thinking a little bit ahead for you. Now whilst, and I wonder which one came first with that. You know, I wonder if that, that idea of feeding and making sure we are okay is something that is ingrained in our culture anyway or as a result and a reflection of that time.

You know, we will never know. It may exist out there, but I just, that's just one of them things that we just seem to do across the board and if it is from them, that is, that is crazy 'cause there's such that idea of unknown, but equally that love that we have of making sure we are good and thinking is also very special and poignant for them as well.

Hema: Food is such a, I said this earlier, such a big part of, for me in growing up, the culture. Whenever we went to Trinidad, for example, you will never go to somebody's house not eat something. It would be insulting to that person.

Keshia: Right?

Hema: But the person whose house you're at would never think of not offering you something.

Keshia: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Hema: There's always food offered and you cannot refuse it. 

Keshia: Oh, absolutely. We're feeders, I think that's just, a cultural love language, isn't it? Mm-hmm.

Hema: I wanna dive into some of these recipes because there's 125 recipes. How many countries are you talking about in this book?

Keshia: So we, we did it in nations and there's 23 because we couldn't count islands individually too many, and I thought actually saying nation is actually is pretty spot on and, and nice because that's how we describe ourselves anyway, based on our flags and so on. And I just think, yeah, that just worked out well. So 23.

Hema: There are a lot of dishes that are made in different countries, islands, nations. How did you decide which country to put the recipe under? So, I'm gonna point to pelau because I have more questions about pelau, but

Keshia: yeah,

Hema: how did you decide to put it under, I think it's Barbados?

Keshia: Grenada.

Hema: Grenada. Thank you.

Keshia: So there was so much to cover, as we know, and not a lot of space and Trinidad takes up the most space-wise anyway, because again, a lot of this is written from naturally my experience and out of other islands than my own I've just had the most engagement with Trinidad through friends, and I've been so many times.

So I had a lot more awareness of the food there and I love it. So selfishly, there's a lot in that chapter for that reason, but, I had to find a way to populate the other chapters as well naturally. And wherever I found crossover, I just thought that would also just open up a wicked conversation because we share lots of things.

And whilst it may be popularized by one island more, yes, Trinidad, I had pelau in Grenada in January and I know that it's eaten there. And also, a friend of my mom's was from Montserrat he was her friend when I was younger, he used to make something called pello.

All this time I never realized it was virtually the same thing. So in that sense, using the pelau as an example, but I think lots of the dishes probably could have been in many other chapters. I had to find a way to spread them out evenly, and pelau worked well because they have it in Grenada, just the same. You guys are neighbours anyway, so that worked out well.

 Hema: I wanna ask you about the origins of pelau because it is a conversation that I've had, and you mention it in the book, what, what is the origin?

Keshia: So for me, I feel like, again, from the awareness I have, it's kind of like this hybrid, almost like a callaloo. And then sometimes callaloo is used to describe culture, right? Of that crossover. So I feel like it's, it's a dish that evolved in the space, in the islands, touching on the African influences and the Indian influences.

So we have like pelau rice, but also for context biryani, where you're layering meat and sauce and rice together in one pot and cooking it down. So that's where it touches on the East for me. And then the addition of the peas and the brown stew and the browning of the meat and the sugar for me speaks to the ingredients of that colonial period, plus that African influence from the, from that community there.

But you may know, do you have some more awareness on that one?

Hema: I don't, I think you've described it quite well, because I haven't heard definitively that it is South Asian Indian, that it is African.

Keshia: Hmm.

Hema: But I feel like, there are elements, this one pot dish is something that we know, this communal, one pot dish is something that we know that the enslaved people… 

Keshia: Cooked.

Hema: They, they brought together whatever ingredients they had as a community and created a one-pot meal that many, many people would gather around.

Keshia: Yeah,

Hema: Because they were not given great provisions, great cuts of meat, great anything

Keshia: Absolutely.

Hema: so they  had to bring it all together.

Keshia: Yeah. Yeah.

Hema: So, so that part is in there, but then, the rice and the biryani could be South Asian. So I feel like it's a really good mix.

Keshia: I think so.

Hema: And a good representation of different cultures.

Keshia: Yeah. And, and specifically again, even though it's in Grenada, but I think, I think islands like Trinidad and then obviously Guyana, but is on the mainland, but still we, it's part of the Caribbean because of our shared culture. I think a dish like that really speaks to those types of islands, diversity, culture-wise, because you can't quite place or trace how this dish came to be.

But it works well within the space and so many people almost like have influence on it, because the way the cuisines have evolved on those islands alone are so reflective of the way the various communities or cultures make up the one now identity, which, if we flip that, imagine if the UK or the US was like that, and then we would have a different sense of like we spoke about earlier, kind of connection to the place because we would feel like a part of our identity actually makes up this place.

But we, that's not necessarily the case, unfortunately. But you do see that in Trinidad, for example. And I see like that, that real strong sovereignty and that proudness you all have, I honestly admire it so much because it's just so, so much clarity on the culture. It's lovely.

Hema: It's, I mean, I'm biased. I'm Trinidadian, but, as I was researching Trinidad & Tobago, and it took me a long time to actually get to that in this podcast, I waited until year two because it is so complex. Trinidad has its own history. Tobago has its own history before they came together. And then I had guests join me to talk about it because they're much more knowledgeable than I am.

One of the surprising recipes that you include here, I say surprising 'cause people might be surprised about this, was a Lebanese dish in Dominican Republic or from the Dominican Republic in that section. And Lebanese and Middle Eastern food is not necessarily the first influence that people would think about when they think about the Dominican Republic.

Keshia: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was, um, it was intentional. It was, again, just to open up that conversation and just show that, we, we are so broad here, and with many of the dishes, is that's why that they're there, for example, the first dish and the first chapter is Haiti.

 For me, Haiti could not go anywhere else. It could not go last and it couldn't be in the middle. Haiti is so foundational and integral to everything that we are now, to pay homage to it, to to respect it, and just to almost like, open up the book with a sense of this is what we are here to do kind of thing is why Haiti is first. 

And of course, because they have that beautiful dish that represents their own history and their own independence is why Soup Joumou is first. 

I really wanted dishes with coucou in it somewhere just to show that, this whole idea of having, like a starch and a stew is a direct evolution from West Africa.

Even the conkie or even though you guys have the savoury pastelle at Christmas, but conkie and all of that. I know I wanted that there to show we have this lovely dish that has a thousand different names and everybody loves, so, many of them are there just to give you certain little bits about us that you probably didn't know before.

Hema: I really enjoyed this book. When I first found out about this book that you'd written and I was anticipating getting my hands on it, I didn't actually anticipate how much information would come, I wanna say packaged around recipes. Right. 

You saw, I, I've marked a bunch of pages that I'm probably gonna go back and look at and cook some of these recipes. 

When we're talking about food and recipes, we know every family makes their dish slightly differently.

Keshia: Yes, absolutely.

Hema: How did you decide how you were going to write each recipe?

Keshia: Just through the research actually. For the ones that I didn't necessarily get to actually experience myself, it was just through really heavy research of looking at lots of different recipes and formulating something that I felt was as close to just based on seeing pictures of it and what I expected the taste to be, 'cause again, those parts are very much anthropological. And then, from the things that I had experienced myself, it would just be through taste and feeling. Because ultimately, as with anything, it's there's a message and then I am the messenger. 

So those things that I've written, for example, I remember the first time I had a pelau out was when I was in Trinidad years ago. And I will never forget that first one that I tried. So for me, that's the foundational taste almost. And I've made it many times since, and I've had it cooked for me many times since. So with that, I just know what it's supposed to taste like. I know what I wanna feel, what I need to look for, stuff like that.

So there's always those elements of kind of like the traditions or the fundamentals, but ultimately, whenever anyone writes a recipe, it's always gonna be from their perspective through their eyes, from their hands, and you know, no recipe’s original and everything evolves. And that's okay when it comes to cooking because there's so many factors that are variable and that's what makes cooking special anyway, so.

Hema: I think that's really important, what you just said is that, because I, I mentioned every family, if we're talking about pelau, every family makes their pelau out a little bit differently. Every country would make a variation of it slightly differently. And one of the things that I love about cooking, for me, is to be able to look at a recipe and, and make it the first time as it's written, and then maybe the next time tweak it a little bit

Keshia: Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm.

Hema: And, and you can do that.

Keshia: Yeah, absolutely. Because there's no, there's really no right or wrongs to this, and it's funny 'cause I've had conversations about this before and I think, and I'm sure you know, you have your thoughts on this too, so I'd love to hear that line of, because, you know, people within their own cultures do this too.

Sometimes that line of cultural appropriation and appreciation, and just what that looks like. And I think, if we take a roti, like a dhal puri for example. I couldn't call that a naan because it just isn't, there are certain fundamentals that make it a dhal puri. It has to be, it has to have split peas in it. The split peas cannot be on top. They have to be inside the skin. I have to be able to roll it in some fashion. It has to be soft enough too. And, so now you may add, I don't know, hot pepper to them, to the peas when you're boiling it, you may not. You may add curry instead of turmeric, you may not. But ultimately this, I think the fundamentals are determined by what the majority recognizes for that thing that makes it the thing. And then everything else from that can be, can be played around with a little bit.

Hema: Yeah, I think it's okay to play around with, this is my opinion, to play around with recipes, add a little something, take away a little something, innovate if you want to try new things. But there comes a point where you, you might veer too far away from the originals to call it the original.

Keshia: A hundred percent.

Hema: And then you have to recognize that it's something different.

Keshia: A hundred percent. And then, yeah, and, and rename it or, or say, you know, this is a, this is not X or this is my blah, blah, blah.

Hema: Or it's inspired by.

Keshia: Yeah. But I think as well, what I have learned from being a consumer and wanting and reaching to food as a sense of connection versus being a chef and wanting to explore my own creativity and stuff like that.

 I've seen how we get very sensitive about our stuff, the way that it's presented and, and, and how it shows up in the world. And I think especially when you are in the diaspora, and I think that's because we don't even realize, and I think that's why something like this is so necessary, and we're seeing this in food a lot more now, but we don't realize how much we do lean on the food for a sense of, of self and connection and, and identity.

Because if we, if it wasn't so integral, we wouldn't go get so upset if, I don't know, someone didn't put carrots in their pelau or something like that. Do you know what I mean? But the fact that we do, which suggests is very important to us. And I think it's so interesting to observe on both sides because it just shows how important food is to us.

When you are of any immigrant community, that is one of the things that, irrelevant of what's going on around you, you will always be able to find a safe space with, because their ingredients are there, are there for you to do what you wish with and almost create that nostalgia for yourself.

Hema: In your research, was there anything that really surprised you in the food? 

Keshia: Hmm, just along the way I realized, I kind of knew this anyway, I guess, but just how, how simple our cooking is, how accessible it is and, and really how humble it is, like across the board. We don't have, we don't have a vast variety of, of things that we cook with.

I found that when I was writing the recipes, I felt like I was repeating myself a lot, especially in the ingredients list because, you know, generally speaking it's onion, garlic, ginger, scotch bonnet, thyme, and then, depending on where you are, like chadon beni or chives or parsley or whatever, and, they're used in different forms or used in different amounts, but generally speaking, we will create different magic with different things. 

And I just thought it was actually a humbling and very nice moment just to realize that again, we create so much magic with not a lot, just like real cool creativity. And the fact that, again, we have so many influences from so many places has allowed us to kind of create such a breadth of food with, again, not a lot of things.

Hema: Before we wrap, we have been talking around your book and alluding to parts of your book, but, tell people about your book, the name of it, where they can find it.

Keshia: So my book, my first book, it's a cookbook and it's called Caribe. It's a Caribbean cookbook with history. I say to everybody, you could cook from this book or you could just sit and read this book. It is for everybody. If you know about Caribbean culture already and our eating culture and all the bits that make our culture amazing, or if you just want to explore, then I feel like it's a great thing to have and it's definitely for you.

It covers the region in all of its individuality, in all the nuance and all of the things that we love about our heritage, and celebrates it from beginning to end. 

As we mentioned earlier, the Indigenous communities, the African community, and then all of the other people in between. And, um, it really talks about that immigrant experience and my experience with food growing up in the UK, but also what food does and how it connects with our culture and identity and our heritage and our sense of self. So, lots of things you can definitely enjoy from it. You can find it on Amazon and your local book shop.

Hema: I'm gonna leave a link down below to your website, to your Instagram,

Keshia: Thank you.

Hema: and to, Amazon's probably the easiest place for people to find it so they can get a, a quick peek of what this book looks like. It is, history, there's information about ingredients, there's the Indigenous names, there are recipes and there's little tidbits that if you just wanna sit and read the book and learn a little bit, you can, and then dive into the cooking.

Keshia:  Absolutely. 

Hema:  I appreciate you taking this time to chat with me today. There is so much more. I, I have a full list of things that I marked to talk about, but we can't, we'll wrap it here, but I will leave resources down in the show notes for people if they wanna find out a little bit more about you, some of the other things that you have going on, and then find your book.

Keshia: Amazing. Thank you for having me. It's been a lovely conversation. Honestly. Really, really good.