Exploring Guyana's Historical Roots with Melissa Goolsarran Ramnauth

The History of Guyana with Melissa, West Indian Diplomacy

Melissa Goolcharran Ramnauth, Editor-in-Chief of West Indian Diplomacy, shares her knowledge of the history of Guyana on this episode of the podcast. 

From the early Indigenous peoples to the colonial power struggles between the Dutch and the British, Hema and Melissa dive into key historical moments in Guyanese history: the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade taking enslaved African people to Guyana to work on plantations, the abolition of slavery leading to indentured labourers from India, China and Portugal, to modern history including the declaration of independence from the Crown, and why the United States interfered in the early elections between the two main political parties.

Melissa’s passion for researching the history of Guyana comes through in all of her work, including her petition to digitize the records of enslaved Africans and Indian indentured servants in Guyana.

Resources

CARICOM

Gladstone Coolies

Coolie Woman by Gaitura Bahadur

The Last Ship: Repatriation from British Guiana to India, Nalini Mohabir

Historical Database Suriname and the Caribbean

How to find Indian Indentured Ancestors that went to Guyana and Trinidad

Connect with Melissa

West Indian Diplomacy

Instagram

Facebook

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West Indian Diplomacy with Melissa

Transcript

Melissa: Well, Guyana means land of many rivers. So where you have rivers, you have fertile land and soil. So there was a lot of sugar, sugar cane and rice, and this was really sought after, however, the sugar price dropped because Europe was able to get it from other sources for cheaper. So the emphasis and the need for it from the colonies decreased, and therefore it kind of paved the way to allow for abolition to happen.

[music] This is The Moreish Podcast where Caribbean history meets culture and cuisine.

Hema: Hi Melissa. Thank you so much for joining me again on The Moreish Podcast.

Melissa: Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I had a great time the last time.

Hema: We did a, an episode with you in Season One that I'm gonna link in the show notes where we talked a little bit about Caribbean history, a little bit about the country we're gonna talk about today. But today's episode is going to be a deep dive into the history of Guyana.

Melissa: Yes. I have done a lot of research in the last few years, just basically for my own curiosity, I've always wanted to know how we came to be, how we got here, and the information wasn't easily available to me, so I just bought as many books as I could, and then I found out more.

Hema: Before we dive right into the thick of it, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and one of your big projects, which is what we talked about the last time.

Melissa: Yes. My name is Melissa Ramnauth. I am Trini and Guyanese. I am also a lawyer. I do trademark law, and one of my passions is the history of Trinidad and Guyana, and as I was learning about it, I started sharing about it on my Instagram, and also that led me to learning more because other people shared their information with me and it was just like a snowball effect. And a few years ago, I started a petition to digitize the records of enslaved Africans and Indian indentured servants.

Hema: And where can people find that petition? If they want to read more about it or even sign it.

Melissa: They can find it on westindiandiplomacy.com.

Hema: Excellent. And I will leave a link to Melissa's Instagram as well as her website in the show notes so you can go find out a little bit more and follow the journey. I can tell there's so much research that goes into what you're sharing.

Melissa: Thank you. I, um, I really enjoy it and I get excited sharing what I'm learning, and I'm very thankful to the people who have written books on what they found. So this way it makes it easier for me to put together the big picture.

Hema: So we're gonna dive into the history of Guyana, and for anybody who doesn't know where is Guyana?

Melissa: Guyana is a Caribbean country and it's located on the northern part of South America. 

Hema: And it is on the, what somebody would call a mainland. It's not an island, but it is still part of the Caribbean.

Melissa: Yes. And actually the headquarters of CARICOM is in Guyana as well, so it's definitely a Caribbean country.

Hema: And for anybody who doesn't know, what is CARICOM?

Melissa: It is similar to the United Nations, but is for the Caribbean countries. There are 16 members of it.

Hema: To talk about the history, we have to go way, way, way back, to the original inhabitants of Guyana. Let's start there.

Melissa: Okay. Yes. Before European colonization, there were Native Americans, just like there, there are here in the United States as well. So there were different tribes. There, the Arawak and the Caribs, were a big part of the Caribbean, and some of them were in Guyana as well. There were tribes along the shoreline and there were tribes in the interior. And I think today a lot of the tribes are still in the interior. When I did a tour of Kaieteur, it was led by Indigenous people.

Hema: So the term Carib is a European term. And in my research, the Caribs were also called Kalina?

Melissa: Yes,

Hema: And is that the Indigenous name?

Melissa: That's my understanding of it. Um, since most of our information comes from what the Europeans documented and gave to us, that name is pretty well referenced, but the Kalina and or the Kalinago tribes were also large tribes in the area.

Hema: And Guyana is one of the places, throughout my research, that seems to still have many Indigenous people, and I think I came across nine different tribes and I don't know if they're different or sort of offshoots of Arawaks and Caribs. Can you talk about that?

Melissa: Yes, based on my research initially, when I first started learning it seemed that the, all the books were telling us that the two main tribes were the Arawaks and the Carib. One was more warlike, one was more peaceful, but that seems like a very basic level. So I think there were a lot more tribes. Guyana recognizes nine main ones.

I'm sure there may be others as well. So I, I think the appropriate understanding is that there were more tribes, and I think if you look at just other civilizations, different regions are so different, so you can't really say that there were two main tribes in this entire landmass.

Hema: In the history of a lot of the other Caribbean islands, and I'm talking islands right now, when we look at the Indigenous population, a lot of times they came over from the region and around Guyana, Venezuela, and made their way over to other islands.

Melissa: Yes. That's my understanding as well that I, the, tribes were primarily on the mainland and as evolution progresses they went to the islands and made it to Cuba, Trinidad, Guyana, Tobago, uh, the other islands. Yes.

Hema: So you, you said all of this happened sort of pre-colonization, and colonization is really a big turning point in the Caribbean that shifted the culture and made a really big difference in what culture, food is like today. 

Who were the first Europeans to spot Guyana or make their way to Guyana?

Melissa: The first recognized or recorded sighting, it actually comes from Christopher Columbus's third journey. So he saw the coastline, but he didn't anchor. 

The first colonizers of Guyana were the Dutch, so they were the first main lasting presence. They're, they set up a few forts, some of those sites are still there today, and you can visit them. And then the power shifted a few times between the Dutch and the British. It went back and forth, and then it finally settled on the British for a few hundred years until their independence.

Hema: So let's dive into that a little bit because so much happened in this, in this time span. Christopher Columbus saw the land. Do you know when that happened?

Melissa: Yes. 1498.

Hema: So he saw Guyana, didn't claim it or didn't drop foot on the land. And then when did the Dutch settle and arrive?

Melissa: Yes, they settled and arrived around the 1600s. I don't have an exact date because some of the earlier colonies were not lasting just like the early US or, or British colonies. They weren't long lasting. So we think there were colonies in the 1600,s and then as they got stronger, they lasted longer and they formed Essequibo, Demerara, and Berbice.

Hema: When the Dutch landed, did they have interactions with the Indigenous population?

Melissa: I assume so. I don't, I did not come across a lot of readings on those interactions, um, like how the pilgrims interacted with the Native Americans here in the US. I have not come across a lot of information on the Dutch and their Amerindian interaction in the beginning.

Have you, have you found anything?

Hema: No, you know, all I found was basically what you said, which is the, the date that I have is around 1580 when the Dutch started their settlements. But that's as much as I was able to find.

Melissa: The 1500s were such a key turning point and the 1600s, but there's not a lot of information. I think the first enslaved African ship came in the 1600s, but I don't know if I have the exact year on that either.

Hema: So when the Dutch settled, anchored on the land and settled, they brought a number of people. Did they, what did they do once they were there?

Melissa: They, they set up the colonies and the forts, Fort Kyk-Over-Al, you could still visit it, I believe it's on an island. Um, the bricks are still there. It's, um, pretty bare bones. Not a, a building, but probably a gate entrance is still there. I think it was mainly for trading posts at that point.

It wasn't like large plantations. Around the time that the powers were shifting, I think the plantations were getting bigger, they were starting to have more villages in the colonies. A lot of the villages have Scottish and Dutch names as well. So, the Stabroek market, I think that is a remnant of the Dutch era.

Hema: You said not a lot of plantations. Was it the Dutch that started sugarcane plantations, or was that later on?

Melissa: They may have started it, but it was really commercialized by the British.

Hema: So, you talked about, um, enslaved people coming over to Guyana, when did that happen and who, who brought them?

Melissa: Yes, they may have come as early as the 1600s. So if they came around then it could have been by the Dutch, and in the 1800s or the 1700s, the British were bringing them. That's the key turning point, that era for the Trans-Atlantic Slave system, a lot of enslaved Africans were taken to Guyana during that time period.

Hema: We talked about the, um, Guyana really traded hands a number of times. So, Columbus saw it didn't do anything. The Dutch came, they started settlements, and then did somebody take over from them? Did somebody join them? Another country? 

Melissa: My understanding was mainly the between the Dutch and the British. I know Trinidad, you know, there was the Spanish, the French, and the British. But the majority of power was between the Dutch and the British. Is that your understanding as well?

Hema: Yeah. That is my understanding and, and I have, you know, one of the, the bits of research that I have basically says the Dutch and other Europeans

Melissa: Mmm hmm.

Hema: moved their estate downriver, and it doesn't really say who the other Europeans were.

Melissa: It might have been privatized Scots because a lot of the, some villages have similar names as in Scotland. So they may have been the other Europeans, but they not necessarily government-led in that sense.

Hema: So in my, in my research, they mentioned the Dutch governor of Essequibo in around 1740s.

Melissa: So I think there were, you know, some skirmishes back and forth with the British and the Dutch, and so maybe the Dutch capitalized for a few years and they were the stronghold. But the last transition of power was not really by force. The British kind of said, we're here and we're staying, and the Dutch did not put up a fight.

Hema: So was it Dutch then, if they're talking about a Dutch governor, were they the first ones to set up a government?

Melissa: Yes, that's my understanding.

Hema: Were the French, did they have any part in Guyana?

Melissa: So I haven't read about French influence in this particular region. We know that they have French Guiana right next door, but I haven't come across much of their influence on, our now known Guyana.

Hema: So Dutch and British, the British came aboard and they basically said, okay, we're here. They were a big force in the entire Caribbean region.

Melissa: Yes.

Hema: So they then, for a lack of better word, established dominance?

Melissa: Pretty much, they took control of the region, they set up the plantations, they forced enslaved Africans over to Guyana to work on these plantations. So for, I would say most of the 1700s, that was the key way of running these plantations and villages. And then as the abolition movement picked up, first they stopped the, the slave trade.

So it wasn't just all at once. So first they put an end to the slave trade. No more transporting enslaved Africans from Africa to Guyana. And then they eventually in 1833, I believe, they abolished slavery, and then there was a period of apprenticeship. And the slave owners, they were compensated for the loss, the loss of their labour, these enslaved Africans, who were now freed they went on to form villages.

Hema: During the, the British rule of Guyana, it wasn't called Guyana.

Melissa: Right. It was British Guyana or British Guiana.

Hema: British Guiana establishing it as a British territory.

Melissa: Yes.

Hema: What plantations were there because, because Guyana is well known for being quite fertile land. What were they doing? What were they planting?

Melissa: Well, Guyana means land of many rivers. So where you have rivers, you have fertile land and soil. So, there was a lot of sugar, sugar cane and rice, and this was really sought after, however, the sugar price dropped because Europe was able to get it from other sources for cheaper. So the emphasis and the need for it from the colonies decreased, and therefore it kind of paved the way to allow for abolition to happen.

So abolition, while you might think would be on moral grounds, it was more than likely on economic grounds.

Hema: Oh, interesting. Where were the Europeans getting their sugar from?

Melissa: In the beginning or at the height, a lot of it came from the colonies, but I think I read they found other sources or they found substitutes, like from beet and things like that. So it made it less appealing to spend all that money to spend all that money to get it from the colonies. 

What, maybe they were growing it closer to home or something like that, but there was a dramatic shift. 

And also, I know in Trinidad there was a period where disease swept through, I think for the cocoa and wiped out a lot of their product. So they, I, they may have found other sources and then did not rely on the colonies as much.

Hema: Earlier in this conversation you mentioned three regions or three cities. What were they?

Melissa: Uh, Essequibo, Berbice, and Demerara. Those are still like, the main regions as I understand it today. And they're, they're along the coast, so most of the villages are along the coast. And then you have some settlements in the interior, which I understand based on my readings, a lot of the interior populations comprise of formerly enslaved Africans, that's where they set up a lot of their villages, and so descendants are there today.

Hema: Demerara. People would know that name because of demerara sugar.

Melissa: Yes.

Hema: Is that still where demerara sugar is produced?

Melissa: I don't think the majority of it is produced there, but speaking of Demerara, El Dorado Rum is from Guyana, and a lot of the legends place El Dorado in Guyana as well. The city of lost gold. 

Hema: So after the enslaved Africans were freed and they set up their own villages, as you were saying, mostly in the interior, the labour had to be replaced.

Melissa: Yes. 

Hema: Who replaced them and when did that happen?

Melissa: Yes. So initially it started with one plantation owner, Joseph Gladstone, he asked the British government if he could import Indians from India to work on his plantation under a system of indentured servitude, where they would work for five years and be paid and then offered passage back to India. 

So, those first indentured servants, they were also known as the Gladstone Coolies. So they came in 1838 on Whitby and Hesperus, Um, yes, May 5th, 1838.

Hema: And that started an entire several years of Indian indentured labourers being brought over.

Melissa: Yes. So from 1838 was the first ship in the Caribbean. There were indentured labourers in the previous years to like Mauritius and Fiji, but the first to the Caribbean was in 1838, and the last ship was in 1917, and then the system didn't officially end until 1920 when anyone under contract was finally freed as well.

Hema: Now it's interesting with indentured labourers. We hear this happening across the Caribbean and they're, the Indians were the biggest population of the indentured labourers, but other people were brought to Guyana.

Melissa: Yes. Probably the second biggest group, but nothing in comparison to size of the Indians, were the Chinese and also the Portuguese. And there have been, I don't know how many, but it was a sizable group as well, of African indentured servants. So following abolition, there were African indentured servants as well.

Hema: Do you know if all of the indentured labourers were sort of housed together?

Melissa: So when they first got there, I think there was like a big barrack system, especially in the first set. After the first set in 1838, there was a ban for five years because of how horrible the conditions were. 

And Coolie Woman is a great book because she really deep dives into it, so I highly recommend anybody wanting to know more to read that book because that really put into perspective for me and gave me a lot of other references as well. 

So I think in that book she talks about how when they got there, in that time, it was probably like a barrack-style where a bunch of different groups all lived together, and as the system went on, then they were probably given more separate quarters, but still in a group setting.

Hema: So it could have been people from Portugal, people from India, people from China, all crossing paths during this time period.

Melissa: Yes, uh, but it was prob… the Indians made up, in my understanding, probably like 90% of the population. So if you had the other groups, they were sprinkled in here and there, but it was probably not too much more.

Hema: Did all of the indentured labourers have to do a five-year term with the opportunity to get passage back to their home country?

Melissa: Um, Coolie Woman says, the book, it says that that was probably like the standard contract. In the beginning, everyone was promised return passage back. As the system went on, and probably as the plantation owners got comfortable, they weren't being enforced, then they would either deny passage back and the people would be stuck, or they would make the indentured servants pay for passage back, so they probably wouldn't have the money anyway to go back because it was very expensive to send them back.

Hema: And that then is the reason why a lot of the people would've stayed and just continued to work. They would, they would be given, be given their own piece of land to build a life.

Melissa: Yes, essentially, based on my understanding and, and my own family history too, people did not, you, you cannot voluntarily enter into a contract unless you know all of the terms and you know the potential consequences and things like that. 

So you had these British officers, you know, talking to these Indians who probably did not know much English. And so a lot of the stories I've read and I've heard in my own family history is that they were tricked or kidnapped into coming. And so if that's how they got them here, they probably were not really honouring the terms of the contract to send them back either. 

So they brought them here with no real understanding of what they would be getting into. And a lot of them had no other choice but to stay. And a lot of them were probably scared to go back. You know, the devil you know is better in some instances so….

And there is a research paper that I did come across where a woman in Canada wrote about her grandfather. He was a crew member on the repatriation ships. And some people, or a lot of people who went back, they couldn't find their villages or they were living in poverty. And then people who went back ended up coming back to Guyana because life in India was even harder going back to.

Hema: That is a really great point is I was talking to somebody, Djamil about the Indian indentured labourers in Jamaica, and one of the points he brought up is once people got used to living in Jamaica or living in Guyana, and maybe they were doing things like eating foods that they wouldn't be allowed to or living a life that was different and that wouldn't be well suited to India, it just wasn't conducive for them to be going back.

Melissa: Yes, exactly. And another set of people mentioned in that research paper I read was that those who did went back or who, and were able to find their village, they were seen as outcasts now because they left the motherland. So it, it was just a, a terrible situation all around.

Hema: One of the, the questions I get a lot is whether it's the Indian, the Chinese, the Portuguese. Why would they leave their home to go to Guyana, to the unknown?

Melissa: Right. And, and that question assumes that they made like a choice by balancing the consequences. But, um, like my own grand great-grandmother, they were like kidnapped. They lured them with the candy and they put them on the ship and the ship sailed away. And then a lot of other people who comment on my page or were mentioned in Coolie Woman, like the British workers, told 'em they were just going to work to another part of India. And so they didn't even know that they were gonna go halfway around the world.

Hema: The, some of the conversation is, things were not so great in the country that they were in, so maybe they thought they were going to something much better, where more opportunities to earn money, to have a better life. And the truth is we actually will never know what was told to every single individual.

Melissa: Yeah, and that was my impression when I first started my research was that times in India were tough. There was a famine going around that, around that period in India that coincided with the British colonization as well, but since researching, I believe that's probably. a concept that was promulgated by the British that, you know, the Indians were given an opportunity for a better life and they took it. But the people who came over, I'm, my impression is that most of them were tricked or kidnapped,

Hema: And I guess a better life is dependent on who's saying it.

Melissa: Right.

Hema: Is it a better life according to the British, a better life according to the people who were kidnapped or taken or tricked into going? And again, that information wouldn't have been saved and recorded for us to really know the truth.

Melissa: Exactly, so I don't think they were given a chance to document their experiences or their children able to learn to read or write. Um, so whatever we have documented, it's very rare or it comes much later.

Hema: So we talked about, uh, Indians being the biggest group of indentured labourers. There was then Chinese and Portuguese, and in Guyana now there still is a Portuguese population.

Melissa: Yes. Um and there's a sizeable one in Trinidad too, and a Chinese population as well. My great-grandfather was one of those Chinese who came, and they're, there's part of the fabric that's like woven into it. They're a smaller portion, but it still makes up one of the things that makes Guyana great.

Hema: In this little, uh, section of history and the conversation that we're talking about, this really changed the trajectory of the culture and the history of what Guyana is like today. Because if we think about what we just talked about, there was the Indigenous, then there was the Dutch and the British who brought over the enslaved Africans, the Indians, the Chinese, and the Portuguese, who all currently have an influence in what Guyana looks like today.

Melissa: Right. And so, today my, my impression is that when I interact with the community here, or even when I visited Guyana, I, I thought it seemed like about 50/50 Indians to, um, or African descent, but the research online says it's about 40% of Indian background, about 30% African background, and then various other populations.

Hema: In the history, as I was sort of doing a little bit of reading, there came a time after all of this that we were just talking about, that there was a clash between Guyana and Venezuela.

Melissa: Yes, actually, I think the clash may have roots in the 17 and 1800s as well, with the territory being drawn. And so it was probably dormant for some time. But with the recent oil finds, it has been revived. 

And last year there were like very high tensions, between Venezuela and Guyana. But Guyana has the backing of the US so I think that kind of quelled the tensions for now.

I looked into this whenever the, the height was, so probably about last year. I know there was some sort of convention and a treaty was signed, and I think the US was present at that mediation, but uh, the borders were drawn where Guyana is currently, and the, the Venezuelans has always disputed that.

I think there are a lot of resources in that region as well, in the mines and everything like that. But after the 2016 oil discoveries, it's the tensions had been mounting to reclaim that territory, and I guess the offshore lands that come with it.

Hema: You said that at the time when the British, when it was a British colony, it was British Guiana. When did the name change to Guyana?

Melissa: So I think in the sixties they became independent and then in the seventies they severed all ties with the Crown, and they, they became a Republic. So I think in the sixties they may have changed it. Um, but I know in the seventies they officially changed it to the Republic of Guyana.

I think it's the Cooperative Republic.

Hema: Does the British have any influence currently?

Melissa: I'm sure diplomatically they still have some sort of influence. A lot of the structures that were built around that time, the buildings, the, the wooden buildings, a lot of them are still there. The, the big church in Georgetown, so they, they have lasting influences in terms of probably architecture. 

In terms of actual political power, no, but, I'm sure there's behind the scenes diplomatic influence. The king invited the President to England not too long ago. And so I think photo ops like that create an impression of forgiveness and friendship. So I think they have influence like that. 

Hema: I don't think we can talk about Guyana without talking about the more modern times of politics and what happened with the first Prime Minister, and the, the tensions between the two parties.

Melissa: Yes. So I think, well, initially, Forbes Burnham and Cheddi Jagan, they were on in the same political party, then the parties split, and eventually, and I think still today still the parties are pretty much based on the people of Indian descent make up the majority of one party and the people of African descent make up the majority of the other party. 

But I think that stems from colonial times when the indentured servitude was still enforced because, I read in a, a few places that the British wanted to make sure that the two groups did not kind of unite. So they kept the villages separate, they let the Indians retain their language, their customs, and obviously the enslaved Africans for the majority were not able to retain as much as their heritage.

So they tried to keep the two groups separate, and that kinda is like the basis for the eventual separation. And in the sixties, the CIA had like covert missions to increase those tensions among the groups around the time of the independence and the first elections.

Hema: Interesting. Why? Why was the CIA involved?

Melissa: Well, they thought that Cheddi Jagan had communist beliefs and they didn't want communism so close to home, you know, right there a few hours away from them. They wanted to keep it in Russia or far away. So they kind of worked to make sure that Forbes Burnham would win the election. And they did that by playing on racial stereotypes and were like new radio stations popping up with propaganda basically.

Hema: We're throwing out some names, so I wanna make sure that we're painting the picture. Uh, Forbes Burham, Afro-Guyanese.

Melissa: Yes,

Hema: And Cheddi Jagan. Indo-Guyanese.

Melissa: Correct. Okay.

Hema: There, the political powers shifted a couple of times between the two of them or the two parties. Is that correct?

Melissa: Yes. Uh Cheddi Jagan he lost the election and then Forbes Burnham, he ruled until he passed away. And then finally in the nineties, Cheddi Jagan, he was elected President and when he passed away, his wife was also elected president. The power has gone back and forth a few times between which group has won.

Hema: So when Cheddi Jagan passed away and his wife was elected, she where, what is her background?

Melissa: She is American and white American. Yes.

Hema: Which it to me is interesting in that, as we talk about sort of maybe the racial tensions that were fuelled by the CIA only to have a white American then woman, then step in for power.

Melissa: Right. I didn't read much about how she came about and was elected, but in the early days when they were fighting for independence from the British, Cheddi Jagan, his wife, and Forbes Burnham, they were all very influential in moving, in carrying the movement forward to get independence from the British. And then when the US stepped in, that kind of shifted how things went after that.

Hema: February 23rd, 1970, Guyana was proclaimed a Republic within the Commonwealth. Is that correct?

Melissa: Yes. Um, that's my understanding. So I'm not too familiar on what the key differences are. Um, they got their independence and then they were Republic within the Commonwealth, and then they severed all ties with the Commonwealth. And my understanding today is that they do not have the Queen or now King as head of state. So I don't know when all that took place.

Hema: This is a really good time to point out that all of this research, um, a doing internet research is hit or miss, right? I try to look for sources that are more reputable and that I feel like I can trust. But I always, when I'm researching for this podcast, remember who is writing this and what could potentially be their motivations. 

Melissa: Yeah, for sure. And what you said is basically my struggle of trying to understand more about the politics in the sixties and seventies, is because for one, there's not a lot of books written on it. You know, if I wanted to read about the 2000 election, there's so many sources, I could form a well-rounded opinion because there's so much available out there. But, in, for that, there's not a lot of sources and then they're so biased. So it's hard to find a middle ground in sixties era.

Hema: You said that the CIA had these covert missions and they, they were fueling the tensions for the reasons that you mentioned. So during that time period when all of this was happening, it is fuzzy because the narrative that the US wanted to put out there is probably very different than what was actually happening.

Melissa: Yes, for sure. I know Cheddi Jagan and his wife, they have personally written books during that era, um, but it is hard to get ahold of other sources as well. 

Hema:  For a small country, what do, do you know what the population is around?

Melissa: I was gonna guess around a million, but I, it is actually like 825,000 around there. Or 835,000.

Hema: There's a lot of nature and rich fertile lands and rivers. Talk about that a little bit.

Melissa: Yes, I think I read that it was like 91% rainforest or still undeveloped, like, like I mentioned most of the cities are along the coast. There's some in the interior, but like when you're flying to Kaieteur, it is just miles and miles of trees. It is amazing to see. It's such just small country. But South America is so big and Guyana is so little compared to South America, and this 90%, uh, greenery and waterfalls. It's just amazing. 

Hema: So a relatively small population in a small part of the country.

Melissa: Yeah, exactly. Yes.

Hema: Looking at all that we talked about and all of the different influences and the different people from around the world who have made Guyana their home for a short time or a long period. What do you think that mix of cultures looks like today?

Melissa: Well, I think the mix of cultures, it, it just created something that is unique within the Caribbean and then part of the greater Caribbean, so you can recognize the Guyanese as part of the Caribbean and then you can recognize Guyanese as being Guyanese. 

It's just something out of so much tragedy and hardships, something so beautiful formed where it's this great culture with food, language, accent if you wanna call it, and it just a sense that, of a community that it has endured so much and become so resilient. And I think it, the culture is a mix of the Indigenous, the enslaved Africans, Indian indentured servants, and the other populations that came to it.

Hema: You know, my family is Trinidadian. And so I think about the, the mix of people that have influenced the country and has made its way to create culture, that everybody sort of celebrates and everybody embraces. Is it the same for Guyana?

Melissa: Well, I know, I know for Trinidad, it's like also a melting pot or, and even more so because you have like the French influence and the Spanish influence that you didn't have in Guyana. But my impression is that it, while it is a melting pot, there is still a lot of divide, unfortunately, that stem from colonization. 

And I think the younger generations have the benefit of the education and the hindsight to be bridging that gap, hopefully. And so, future generations and this current generation can help, you  know, undo those dark spots that were created by colonizers and that we can be more together.

Hema: Yeah, when you think about it, the last ships bringing Indian indentured labourers over was 1917.

Melissa: Yes, and I think that's, that's probably the last official ships, but I have family members who have family who came in the forties, fifties, and sixties. So I think, just like with slavery, there was illicit ships still coming. So it is a very, it is a new history still.

Hema: It is still a new history, which would explain why, as you just said, there may still be tensions and there still may be work to do, as a result of colonization, because it wasn't really that long ago.

Melissa: Right. And one of the benefits is of social media is that you can learn information or, or the internet period, you can learn more than your parents could in their time. Or even when I was younger, I couldn't just go on Amazon and buy a book and try to figure out my timeline. I didn't know that it was gonna be ever possible to figure out how our ancestors came here.

I mean, I still didn't figure out the exact ships or the exact ancestors for some of my lines, but, thank goodness I, I'm able to at least know more than I knew when I was little.

Hema: I am really grateful for all of the work that you do, both on your website and through social media, because it is a lot of work to research, to find the images of the ships, find out some of these details, and you're a mom, you're a lawyer, and you're also a historian. How do you find the time to do all of this?

Melissa: Well, it, it's honestly I, I kicked it off with my last one. It was the height of COVID. I was postpartum, but I was like, nobody is seeing the similarities of this 2020 election, or I thought, to the 1960s elections. So it was a lot of late night, it still is a lot of late night postings. Um, just because I'm just internally compelled to share it. I enjoy it, and it one day my kids will be able to understand their history easier.

Hema: And the important thing is doing the work and documenting it, because that's one of the, the things that you talk about in your petition is we are at risk of losing some of these records if we don't save them.

Melissa: Yes, and I, I think a lot of them have been lost to the elements over the years, and we have to protect as much as we could. But whatever there is, I hope we can digitize them, as well.

Hema: And make them available to anybody and everybody who wants to take a look into the history.

Melissa: Right. And I, uh, kudos to Suriname because I understand that they have digitized and have their information all online. I've heard from several people that, Guyana is very close, but then, the change of political power means that that project has taken off and it's not, you know, at the forefront anymore.

So, and I think Guyana's slowly working on it, but history is not really something that gets people elected, so they don't think it's worth prioritizing. But I say no, it needs to be prioritized because the climate and the weather, it's not protecting those pages.

Hema: No. Melissa, what is your website where people can go find out some of the articles you've written and also find this petition?

Melissa: Yes, it's westindiandiplomacy.com. I share a lot of,whatever I find about a particular topic. I write about it. In the last few years I've been sharing this week in history, what happened, and I have a article about the steps that you can take to find your Indian ancestors or your enslaved African ancestors as well.

So I get that question a lot. So I wrote a blog article about it and what you can do and the different steps you can take to try to find your ancestors.

Hema: I encourage anybody who's interested in learning more to go visit both your Instagram and your website, because there's so much more that we didn't talk about today, and there's so many nuances that we can't explain and cover in a one hour podcast episode. I will leave links below. 

Melissa, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to join me today to talk about the history of Guyana.

Melissa: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to share what I know and I'm glad to learn from you as well, find out things that I didn't know. Um, it's al it's always trying to find more to know where we came from.

Hema: And the work continues, and we'll continue doing it.

Melissa: Yes. And thank you for all you do as well. 

​[music] Thanks for joining me for this episode. Don’t forget to subscribe and rate the podcast. It really does help getting the podcast and our Caribbean stories in front of more people. See you for the next episode.