Book Talk: Exploring Caribbean Heritage Through Food with Marie Mitchell

Exploring Caribbean Identity, Food, and Family Stories with Marie Mitchell

Marie Mitchell, a chef, writer, and author of Kin: Caribbean Recipes for the Modern Kitchen joins Hema to talk about her Caribbean heritage and stories through the lens of her narrative cookbook,  that blends Caribbean history, culture, and cuisine. 

Marie’s book shares an intimate look at her family's journey, sadness & joy, and their resilience, plus her personal journey of connecting with her roots through cooking. Highlighting the significance of her family's legacy and the broader Caribbean experience, Marie's insights offer a profound exploration of identity, loss, and resilience. Listen to discover how food can serve as a bridge to understanding and celebrating the vibrant and layered Caribbean culture.

Connect with Marie Mitchell
Website 

Instagram 

Slow Rituals on Substack

Kin: Caribbean Recipes for the Modern Kitchen 

Episodes mentioned:
Culinary Colonialism with Keja Valens

Photo Credit: Chiron Cole

Transcript

Hema: You say that this is more than a cookbook. How would you describe the book?

Marie: I describe it as a narrative cookbook. It takes you on a journey and a story. It also gives you an insight into how incredible the Caribbean is, how the people are so layered and how much depth there is. And maybe it’s a microcosm of, of the Caribbean itself in terms of the fact that it’s a like story about my family, but then talking about the resilience, the hardships, the sadness and stuff we’ve experienced, but then the joy that also comes from that. And then that being one of the stories that exists for the Caribbean itself.

[music] 

Hema: Hello Marie. Thank you so much for joining me today on The Moreish Podcast.

Marie: Thanks for having me. Hello.

Hema: I am so excited to talk to you today about one of my favourite topics, food and specifically Caribbean food. But before we dive right into the conversation, can you introduce yourself?

Marie: Yes, I'm a, I'm a chef, writer, and an author. I use food as a way to talk about much wider conversations about culture, history, politics, economics, because I really do believe that breaking bread is a really good way to have bigger,  heartier conversations. So yeah, that's me.

Hema: I read your book, I made a bunch of notes, and then when I was rereading it, I added something that I wanted to ask you about, which is the very first lines in your book. "It's a new year and I'm staring out at the Caribbean Sea, feeling closer to the home I hold in my imagination than in a long time.

These last two years, I have felt lost, detached from myself. Here in Grenada, though I've been able to find pockets of me that I thought were gone." And that really stuck out to me because you open with such a powerful statement and you continue to, throughout this book, have very powerful emotional statements. So I'd like to start with that opening. And, and where you were at that time.

Marie: I was in Grenada, it was the last place we were staying in while we were shooting some of the book. So just very classically me, um, in terms of how I work, the fact that I was, we were, we were in Grenada shooting some of the kind of more scenic photographs that feature throughout the book, and the book hadn't actually been completely finished yet, I think says so much, but, I'd been really struggling with kind of starting the essays, and I remember sitting on this veranda and I was looking out at, at, at the sea, and I just went to my friend, I've got it and ran and got my phone and just sort of wrote this, this bit down because I was sitting in a hammock and my legs were dangling, I think, I think at the time my daughter might have been asleep, and so I, I was just looking and, and I was just really thinking about my legs and kind of the, the mental and physical weight that they've been carrying. But then thinking about paths and, and, and people and, and how we sort of forged and just very, very physically kind of what we carry and then metaphorically what we carry. And then I was just thinking about the fact that, it had been nearly two years, or just about two years since my mom had passed away.

And the last time that I'd spent any lengthy time with her was, was in Grenada, because that was just before the pandemic happened. And her last year of life was 2020, which was during the pandemic. So we didn't see a lot of each other because at the time I got pregnant kind of midway through, and she had to isolate, because she had sickle cell and lupus and because I was being careful because I was pregnant.

So we just didn't get to see a lot of each other that her, her, her last year. And I think in being in the Caribbean, even though, uh, her heritage or mom and dad's both their heritage is Jamaican, they were both born there, being in the Caribbean, being back in this space that they, even if it wasn't their home as such, there was a connection. There was this, this link, this forging, this understanding, one of togetherness of being physically at this place that I sort of created my new family in terms of getting married to my husband. But then that last time that we all spent this kind of two weeks together, for this very life-changing time and being there, I was just looking out and and I genuinely did feel like as though I was connected back with a time and a place and with an energy that had been missing for quite some time.

Hema: You experienced some loss in your life prior to writing this book,

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: and you talk about the passing of your brother, Richard, and it encouraging you to really connect with your heritage.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: Can you, can you share a little bit about that?

Marie: Yeah. After we lost Richie, I think, as a family we were lost for quite some time. And I think when we started, when I started the supper club and asked my dad to cook, it was just so mum that she was like, can I, can I, I want, I want to be a part of it. Can I be a part of it too? Um, so with have, having her host, this thing that was new and fresh and kind of exciting, kind of became an opportunity for us to reconnect, I suppose. And in doing that, it kind of started around the time that I turned 30, which is actually nearly 10 years ago. It was 10 years ago the other day, I'm on the eve of turning 40, so it feels like lots of big things happen at these junctures. And I had really started to think about kind of who I was, I suppose the, the identity question was coming up and trying to understand who you are, who you are outside of family or friends, just really kind of bedding down in terms of that question. And Richard had always been very self-assured in a way that I probably hadn't been. And one of the things that he was always very, very connected to, which we both were, but I suppose him being older and, and I mean just different personalities, but his Caribbean-ness was very tied to mom and dad, but also there was just a way in which he expressed it that I adored. And so, in wanting to understand who I was, I suppose I wanted to really understand my Caribbean heritage because my British-ness exists because I live here. I was brought up here.

But in terms of my Caribbean, that's the part that so much have been, has been absorbed through osmosis, through, whether that be family or friends or being, you know, as I've got older, spending more time in the Caribbean. But what I loved was just this ability to kind of tap into an essence of what Richard massively personified, through food and understanding how he managed to hold those parts of his identity with these expressions in these recipes, or the things that mom and dad had cooked for him, and then bringing that into my, my own kind of understanding of identity, if that makes any sense.

Hema: It, it does. I mean, it's such a, it's such a great thing that he passed along to you and continues to share with you, even though he's not physically with you anymore.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: This identity and sense of self.

Marie: Mm. Yeah. And, and, and I'm really grateful for that because I think I really wanted both my mom and my brother to, to be felt in the pages of the book because they're not with me. And for those that know them, they can really feel them in there. So I sort of feel as if that legacy has been held onto and safeguarded within those pages, which to me is yes, it's great when people read the book and, and actually it does keep reaching further and wider and, and it's far beyond my wildest dreams for what I could have imagined for it.

But, the very basis of it is that I just really, really wanted something that captured my family and for me to have a physical manifestation of that and, and that was achieved. So, you know, no matter what, I'm like, the job is done.

Hema: The job is done. In those opening pages your family comes through, in your words, in your photos. It very much sets the tone for the book.

Marie: Thank you.

Hema: And talking about family you, you said earlier your parents are both Jamaican,

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: but they left Jamaica at an early age.

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: So they didn't spend that many years of their formative years in Jamaica before they moved.

Marie: Yeah, they both moved when they're eight.

Hema: And, and they moved to the same, 

Marie: London.

Hema: they both moved to London.

Marie: Yeah, both South London, not that far apart.

Hema: In some ways, and some people would say your Caribbean-ness is even more diluted because your parents moved to London at a very early age.

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: But let's talk about that identity and what Caribbean cultural identity meant to you as you were growing up.

Marie: I think it was just in my head, it was just my family. I was just like, oh yeah, that's, that's just who we are. I suppose I, I probably didn't think of it as a separate part of my identity. It is only as you get older and you're, I suppose defining yourself in your own terms, that then you start probably exploring.

And I don't think everyone does this. I think if you come from a diaspora community or, global ethnic majority community who has moved away and there's a separation from what we define as home, I think then that's probably when you start questioning and, and trying to understand it because there's a part of yourself, I suppose, that's always, I mean, or maybe not everyone feels it, but I suppose there was a part of myself that I felt was missing that I wanted to understand with far more depth and, real investigation and, and, authority, I suppose. 

For me, my parents were always very deeply Caribbean. I suppose when they probably moved to the UK, they would've moved during a time when, in terms of who they associated with, of course, like at school, their, their communities were more diverse. They ended up meeting because they grew up on an estate in, um, South London in Earlsfield and so many of the communities were there. Yes, there were lots of Caribbean communities, but there were also just other communities that they knew and grew, grew with and from. But I suppose fundamentally when they initially moved here, everyone that they would've associated with was Caribbean. 

So even though they weren't there, there was this real like strength of identity, and mom and dad both remember very specific things, like my dad recalls being absolutely confused as to why they were in this cold, dark place where he was used to colour and sunshine and warmth, and really not understanding the food. And like he has, my dad has really vivid memories around this. And actually my mom, particularly when we were in Grenada in 2019, she spoke about the fact she was eating fruits and just like, oh my God, I remember this as a child.

So I can understand the conversation about dilution, but I actually think there were formative years that were there. I think maybe had they come, I know that for siblings that were slightly younger, there's a slight, a greater detachment. But I think for them, there was this real understanding of like, they were always Jamaican first and British second. And so much of their upbringing really is very layered in British-ness. And, I think in many ways there's a, there's a discussion about the the indoctrination personally, that does exist particularly for that kind of generation because there was so much about the Crown and about being British as a commonwealth country that for my generation, there's a much more comfortable detachment from that that I don't think my parents were necessarily afforded because so much of it was about belonging belonging and assimilation.

And I think that's where the dilution comes from in that there was an assumption or a way in which they were made to feel that they had to be a part of something,  and then to be a part of that, they had to be a very strict type of person. Now personally, both my parents didn't conform to that in all the ways. My mom was a massive Royalist, so she did in others. But, uh, I really think that they were truly Caribbean first, and that's probably why I hadn't necessarily felt as if I'd missed anything for such a long time.

Because when I'd go to my aunt's, when I'd go to my, my nans or my other grandparents, there was this sense of belonging and understanding that there wasn't something you needed to have an explanation from. It was just how we existed. And I just thought that, that was quite, quite beautiful. But of course, it was a version of, because it was a diaspora community.

Hema: It's an interesting conversation that I've had with many people, some who have the same feeling as you do, and some who say if you didn't grow up in the Caribbean then you don't really understand it.

And I was born and raised in Toronto. My parents moved to Canada shortly before I was born. And I understand that there is a difference between growing up in Trinidad versus growing up in Toronto. But that doesn't mean that that Caribbean Trinidadian identity doesn't still reside as part of who I am.

Marie: Yeah. As you said, there's a hundred percent a difference in terms of my experiences versus those that grow from the Caribbean. And for me, I approach it with curiosity. So for me, I'm always trying to ask questions to understand how I can bridge that conversation so that it doesn't feel as if I'm going there and being extractive, because then that actually speaks to colonialism and that's not something I want to be a part of. But the other side of that is that where does it get us if we constantly want to remove the fact that you're connected?

And so I approach it with curiosity because I'm very much wanting to try and find that bridge or that connection for how we can understand those…both of our experiences. But ultimately for me to feel, not even for me to feel, but for there to be an understanding that we're both embedded in a history and a conversation together. And then what I sometimes like to think about is by kind of talking about the fact that I'm removed in a negative connotation, what does that do to try and create a conversation for us to try and figure out ways in which we can work as, as a unit or in tandem with each other to try and create differences and growth?

Because fundamentally, the, the things that I want, I would love to see for the Caribbean, I would hope, are the same things that Caribbeans want to see for themselves. And I, there’s definitely a real conversation to be had about the fact that being here there is an element of privilege that I have had access to. And so it's really important for me that when I do go there, that I'm conscious of the fact that I approach everything with curiosity and I'm there as a student, not as someone who has authority, and supporting in the power, the people in the communities want to exist there. But also to do that in a way that, that genuinely is supportive and really wants to see change.

I don't really want to be someone who is over here just doing all the talking, but then not trying to figure out ways in which I can support the community. And so I think it's very much embedded in being like, how can I put the power in your hands so that it isn't basically just only extractive or extractive at all? As much as possible. And that's why I think when I talk about the work that I do, of course it's layered in,  in an understanding or an in in culture, but also being very conscious of the fact that there is a difference between what I'm doing here and what I would be doing there. But I'm always trying to honour, as much as I'm able to, in being laid in respect for the place in which I know that my history comes from.

Hema: All of what you just said really comes through in your book, and I encourage people, when they get a copy of it, to read that, those beginning pages, because I think a lot of this sentiment, a lot of this feeling comes through in those beginning pages, and also through the book in the story that you tell before each recipe. The care that you take to share the knowledge, share some history, share some information. It's not just a cookbook chockful of recipes.

Marie: Oh, honestly, this, you really hope that you really, you really hope that people read the book and take from it what you're trying to give. But ultimately, once it's out in the world, people interpret it however they're going to. So sort of hearing that that level of care, detail and respect is fully layered and, and is being interpreted in that way, um, actually does make me quite emotional because it's like you have a goal, you have a goal, and you really hope that that's what you achieve.

And, um, for that to have actually happened is quite magical cause there often can be barriers sometimes to making that happen, particularly in the world of publishing. And I was, I was lucky and I don't, like the fact that I was lucky in my experience because I think that should be the experience that everyone has. But I'm aware of the fact that this isn't necessarily everyone's experience. So, feels quite incredible to know that what I set out to achieve many years ago has actually gone off into the world and…[laughter]

Hema: When you say you were lucky, what does that mean? Tell me about that. 

Marie: I'm lucky. Um, there's a couple of things here. I think, uh, as a black female author, we know that, our work is absolutely desired. It is bought, it is appreciated. But fundamentally, I think the Caribbean particularly is still very much an under, under-researched, a lack of understanding in terms of how rich, um, layered the culture is.

And I think in many ways, there's a part of that that is maybe done by design sometimes I think in when I think about it, because though there were experiences of colonization and slavery that existed before that, that particular period in time caused such intense growth, particularly in Europe, but really also in um, North America as well, that not contending with it is a history that people would probably prefer to ignore. So there's a surface understanding. 

And then I think because of that, maybe there's a lack of understanding how accessible much of the Caribbean culture and cuisine is. And then I think in terms of just like being, as I said, a black female author, the publishing industry, we know that there's a massive stripping back of black authors being supported. That wasn't my experience, but I do know that that does exist. But then equally, just sometimes without those additional layers, some publishing experiences are just not necessarily the most collaborative. 

And with that means then you're not being supported in your vision. And my, I suppose being lucky was that I chose this one. There were a few choices and I chose this one. I chose it because was such excitement for the work and my editor at the time was extremely experienced, but also has become such a close friend. I'm actually having lunch with him tomorrow. Um, and there was an alignment. There was an alignment in, in that there was an understanding of my vision and a real excitement and drive to bring it to life. And that's where I think I talk about the luckiness because I think sometimes visions can be moved or reshaped because of the fact that it might make sense from a commercial perspective that people have an understanding. But I, I was very passionate about how I wanted it to be from, from tiny detail in that book. Everyone that was involved was incredible, and there were many conversations that were had in terms of what we wanted to bring to light, but. The fact that everyone involved really wanted to make that happen, and it was incredibly collaborative process is where I feel like I had probably one of the best experiences that I, I could have been afforded, to be perfectly honest.

Hema: I've been fortunate enough to speak to three different authors of Caribbean cookbooks, all women. And I think based on those, the three conversations it sounds like you had, quote unquote the easiest time because somebody else said the sentiment, or the question came up, how many Caribbean cookbooks can there be? Or should there be? And the answer is, it doesn't matter. Infinite, every.

Marie: So, exactly. Do you know what I mean? It's like the same question that we should have for every other cuisine that we have. I think one of the best quotes I ever heard, or was a conversation with a friend where she'd been reading something and fundamentally she was like, the reason why there's this sort of of drive or idea that French cuisine is sort of seen as a pinnacle is because someone basically wrote it down. 

So much of our, in terms of global ethnic majority, so much of our history and, and our recipes are passed down orally. And that's the difference. That is the main difference. If we had written it down, maybe it would've been this, I mean, I think there's other intersects that would've probably had a, had some involvement in that no, maybe not being the case, but, fundamentally when we really want to strip it back, someone wrote those things down. They were like, right, these are the mother sauces, and then these are the the daughter sauces that come from that. You know what I mean?

Hema: Yeah.

Marie: That’s basically if we're really simplifying it, that's what happened. And so I think it's so painfully reductive when we have that conversation of, oh, how many can there be? And I'm like, well, we all have a unique voice. We all have a different story to tell. If we can have 20 different or 30,000 or however many books on cookies or bread making or Italian cuisine or French cuisine, then we can have the exact same for the Caribbean.

And if we look at the fact that the representation is already skewed, then we can have even more. It's a huge region. A huge region. We have barely even scratched the surface, so we can absolutely have limitless possibilities. And it's really, it's infuriating to realize that that's, and I, and I know that's not a unique experience and, and solely only from Caribbean. I know that that's the experience for a lot of other, I suppose, marginalized communities. I don't like using that word because I always want, I'm, I'm very much in an era of my life where I'm trying to stand in power. And so it's using words that, that, that allow us to feel that. So it's not just kind of, if we don't necessarily believe it, if you keep saying it becomes true, do you know what I mean? And so it's frustrating to realize that that is, I know it's the, I know it's the truth, but it's always upsetting to hear.

Hema: I did a, I had a conversation with, uh, Keja Valens who wrote Culinary Colonialism, so a look at the early cookbooks from the Caribbean and the early food. And one of the things that you said is much of the knowledge of recipes and cooking was passed down orally.

And in this conversation that I had with her, she points out that many of the early Caribbean cookbooks were actually written by Europeans who were trying to write down the recipes of food that was being cooked for them.

Marie: Mm.

Hema: And so if you look back in history at some of these cookbooks, you're not actually getting, in my opinion, the true food. You're getting a version of written by people who probably never made any of the recipes themselves.

Marie: Yeah, I've definitely, when doing some, some of my research that's something that came up and, and even in terms of a lot of the history books as well, like a lot of them are written by white people. And that's not to say there isn't a place for that, and that there aren't, um, there isn't space for people that have basically really spent time and energy in these places to understand and to share that culture.

That's not it at all, but it is, it says a lot. The fact that the opportunities in to kind of get these things down and to share this was centred around Europeans.

Hema: Yeah. Your book, Kin Caribbean Recipes for the Modern Kitchen. So I have a couple of questions about this. Why did you choose to write a book about the entire Caribbean and not just one island, one country?

Marie: Mm-hmm. So, I mean, as I said, it's still so much more, it's so vast and there's still so much more to touch on. But I suppose what I wanted to do was talk about what my experience of Caribbean cuisine was to that point. And so the recipes that feature in there are they are heavily Jamaican because that is my experience, and I think when it probably would've been more broad, so there were things that were taken out that would've, that will find its way into other cookbooks. But for this one, there definitely, it definitely became more of a legacy project. So for me, it really felt important to include the things of my family because I wanted that to be present. But then the additional recipes that feature are ones that I've had experience with, either people that I have loved, I do love, or places that I've been to, and I wanted to capture that.

So, I mean, to try and even touch on vastness was never going to be something that I was gonna be able to do in one book. But for me, the recipes and the reason why I've done those is because the fact that I was like, this is my, this is how I got into doing this, and these are the exposures that I've had to this point. And then every book that will follow from that will be another experience and another journey into another part of what I'm trying to discover. 

And I think also because the fact, you know, with the title it, it gives it away in many respects, yes, this is about my family, but it's also about how we relate to each other as Caribbeans, and understanding that we are individuals and we have our nuances and differences in the different islands, but that we are kin. And I will probably say this until the day I die, but we are so much stronger together and the more can recognize and realize that, then we are able to stand in our power. 

So that's the reason why I wanted to touch on a few places, not enough, but I wanted to touch on a few because it's the exposure and the experiences I've had with people from some of those places, whether that's diaspora communities or direct access in some of the places I visited and wanted that to feature.

Hema: And, and what do you mean by the modern kitchen?

Marie: I knew that one was coming. We always need a subtitle. 

I, I think for me, what I mean by it is that you, these are recipes you can cook every day. Not every single recipe is an everyday recipe, but I really wanted people to understand in a modern context that Caribbean cuisine can sit right there next to other European cuisines that we will cook with in abundance without even second guessing. And so that's what I meant by that subtitle, is that this is food for everyone on any day, and it should absolutely feature in your rotations. 

Hema: There are recipes in your book that are easier to make and some that are a little bit more complex and

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: there's a time and a place for everything, and

Marie: Exactly.

Hema: much like our families, our growing up, for me, the weekends were when those more complex recipes were made for the big Sunday lunch or the weekend, and then the easier ones were made during the week.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: There's an interesting thing with from family to family, from country to country, region to region, you might have the same recipe being made slightly differently.

Marie: Yes.

Hema: And so following a recipe book gives you from, in my opinion, a starting point

Marie: Hmm.

Hema: to learn the recipes, learn the flavours, and then you can branch out, if you find other ingredients that you want to include or other techniques that you wanna include, but it's a really great beginning to the culture and to the food of the place.

Marie: It's, yeah, that's very much what I want this to be is that I'm giving you the context and the history if you want to tap into it, which I really hope people do. It's woven in in different ways and the essays, if you want to have it a little bit meatier, but even with the recipe introductions, like it's there to give you a little bit of a snippet. 

But I wanted this to be a framework, and I think that's the reason why maybe other cuisines have become things that we will cook because we have been exposed to it for longer, and so then we've had a longer chance to help understand the framework and that, I suppose I was thinking about it as scaffolding.

We're just gonna keep building on our knowledge and our experience. So this is something where you're like, okay, I don't have much knowledge, so let me try this recipe. Okay, that was actually really accessible. Let me try another one. Or my family prefers it like this, so I'm actually gonna adjust it for our taste or for our palette. Do you know what I mean? I think that's kind of what I really wanted this book to be. 

And also for those who do have an understanding of the cuisine, but for whatever reason, they've not cooked it or they didn't manage to capture recipes from their own family, and so we can cook it. And then, oh, I now kind of understand what my granddad, grandma, mum, or dad was doing. And then being able to experiment to be like, if I add a little bit of this, oh my gosh, that tastes just like how they used to make it. So it’s kind of twofold. It's for those that don't know, and then also for those that have some experience to then get additional, especially for those that haven't always been able to be exposed to it, because not all families.... there's a lot of gatekeeping that does exist, and so, so it's like to kind of give people access and that's kind of where it came from in many ways because, you know, I would ask my nan, I would just have to watch with detail because they don't write anything down, and actually I do find, like when I'm recipe writing, I will, I will quite often just kind of do things in instinct and I'm like, oh God, I've got to try and remember write these details down.

And, and honestly, most of the recipes, they've been tested many times and I made sure that I really wanted to make sure that they worked, but when I'm cooking them myself, I don't follow it. I'm, I'll look at it and be like, oh yeah, I forgot. Oh, yeah, and then I'll just add a whole load of extra of this, or a little bit more of that because it's like, what do I have in the fridge and also what have I got available? 

So I, I really want it to be that fun. I want it to be pleasurable. I want it to be enjoyable. I don't want it to be something that becomes too prescriptive, but I do want you to be able to have the opportunity to, to get that context and understanding while also being able to build on your knowledge base.

Hema: Every single one of us who's tried to learn a recipe from moms, grandmothers, aunties, uncles know that they will say, you stir it until it looks like this. Or when you say, how much how much of this spice do I put in? It's generally they'll put it in their hand and say about this much,

Marie: Yes.

Hema: and I don't know what about this much means. So looking in a book

Marie: Yes.

Hema: gives a really great starting point. If anybody's out there who's had that experience of not being able to write down recipes from people in their family

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: a cookbook is a really great way to get started. And also it’s to preserve the recipes because cultures and people and how foods are made are always changing

Marie: Mm.

Hema: and adapting and growing and as populations change, as ingredients become more readily available, as different techniques emerge, then we start to see a different variation of some of these foods. And so a book like yours, for example, sort of preserves place and time.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: So 10 years from now, I might open your book and say, oh, well somebody makes the soup now very differently, but this is what it was made like 10 years ago.

Marie: Hmm. And that's really beautiful. The idea that you're capturing a moment in time, that's when you know that that's, that is what is happening. I think, 'cause I felt very passionate about, when I first started cooking, I was like, everything has to be very traditional. And I think that was because I was trying to understand it.

And that's probably where that came from. I think my cooking now versus even two or three years ago, maybe even a year ago, has massively shifted because there's an element of, I think me allowing myself to be more experimental. I'm still honouring, I'm still understanding, but actually, you know, I've been doing it longer now where I'm allowed, it's not even allowed, I feel comfortable in being more playful, and maybe not always being quite as traditional. Maybe it's like the nod to rather than being like, I'm going to do this exactly as that, it's like playing around with what the ingredients can do and how I can experiment with them, is a really fun place to be, actually.

Hema: This book isn't your first foray into the food space.

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: And you talked earlier about the pop-up that you had with your parents and it was a supper club? Is that correct?

Marie: Yes. Yeah. Pop's Kitchen.

Hema: And then this led to Island Social Club

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: supplying thousands of customers with rum and roti. So

Marie: Yes.

Hema: tell me about this.

Marie: Yeah. So I started my supper club in 2016 with my dad helping me in the kitchen and mum helping me host, which was wonderful. And then probably about eight months in, I met, uh, Joseph, who running a rum pop-up with his cousin Biko, and we started collaborating together. 

So they would curate a rum menu, punches and things to run alongside the food. And eventually we figured out it just made sense to kind of work together because we were definitely on a similar pathway of trying to understand our identity through our own lens and research and, and then Island Social Club was born. It took a little bit longer than just how quickly I'm saying it, but, we kind of had the chance to do a couple of different residencies. So like longer term restaurant residencies at the same time. So one was a, one was actually a street food site and then one was this. And in the street food site we started doing roti. And that we really noticed that is something we really wanted to explore. And we then got a chance to have like a restaurant residency for a year, which is then when we were supplying lots of people, thousands of people with a rum and roti, which was incredible, I have to say. 

It was a, it was…one, it was extremely challenging and eye-opening to run a restaurant. You know, neither of us had worked in hospitality before, so it was quite an extreme learning curve, which I, I look back on with fondness. It was, it was really tough at times, but the amount of knowledge and experience and also just like this huge energy that kind of came from that was amazing. And I think for us, which is probably the way in which I like to engage with my work even now is that we wanted to kind of profile and highlight other parts of the cuisine that maybe don't get as much of a, of a place. Being Jamaican, I'm very aware that so much of what we experience as Caribbean is actually Jamaican or through the lens of Jamaica.

And of course I'm a massive fan of Jamaica. It's, you know, it has my heart. But there are other places, and we wanted to explore that, and so that's why we decided to focus on roti. And so we spent a good like year doing a lot of research and recipe testing and retesting to kind of nail the roti recipe, and then bringing that to the people.

And, and it was, it was incredible. There was such a space for it. And I really think, I don't know if it's the same in Toronto, but certainly here, I think a lot of the time you either have quite high-end places or you have the takeaway joints, but that kind of middling space, there's just not as much of that. And that definitely sat there, which is why I think it was really well engaged with, because the fact that you could go and have really good quality food, providence has always been really important to me and will continue to be. But then equally it's like really relaxed. There wasn't this sense of rigidity or anything like that, you could just go and have a really good time. So yeah, that was Island Social Club, which was amazing.

Hema: When you say roti, 

Marie: What do I mean.

Hema: what roti are you talking about?

Marie: I'm talking about buss up shut roti. Yes.

Hema: So this is, this has been really eyeopening for me, is that question of what does roti mean to you? Because I've started asking people that question as I, on the podcast or as I encounter them in life, and the answer changes from person to person.

So I talked to somebody else, roti for her is dhal puri. Roti for my other friend buss up shut. Roti for me is sada roti. So it's interesting.

Marie: Oh, I do love sada roti. Oh, so good.

Hema: So it's interesting that that one word that we use means something different to so many different people.

Marie: Mm. And what's beautiful is it's bread, but yet still this bread means different. And I think just the absolute basis of what it is for us, but then also the way in which that fundamental bread, flour, water, maybe some sort of leavening agent, but then also maybe a bit of salt, maybe a bit of sugar. How that plays out around other cultures and cuisines as well. So there's this idea of roti for us, but then the way in which that plays out around culture is just incredible. Like the simplicity of what you can do with this flour, this grain, and how then that is interpreted and becomes this other thing. But just for me, it's that tangibility just. Oh God, now I want roti.

Hema: I'll tell you the art of making roti looks, when you watch someone do it, it doesn't look that complicated, and I'm talking about any kind of roti.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: It doesn't look that complicated, but once you start to try it,

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: I’ll tell you that I've never successfully made a good roti in my life.

Marie: Really. Okay. You've gotta try the recipe and then message me and I'll send you some tips because we need to make this happen.

Hema: It is…and, and I think, sada roti is probably the easiest in my opinion to make, but it's such a technique to learn.

Marie: It is. And it's funny because I think, I've, I've done a few classes and things and, and often will teach roti because I think it is one, it's really interactive, which is so fun. And I think just like people seeing it, it's, it's really fun. But I also know it's probably one of the hardest things to get right.

So be having the opportunity to be in, in space with people, you know, actually in community and standing there and being able to like, right. This is kind of how you do it. And, and going through that is, is lovely because I'm able to then show them like, this is, this is the beginning of your journey, but also recognizing yeah, that is a skill that has been practiced and then I've grown. Like the roti I used to make five years ago versus the roti I make now. And, and just the, the way in which I'll be like, hmm, no, that's not quite right. And I can actually be, oh, that the, the milk was too hot there, or, oh no, that needs more kneading.

Or actually just let that rest because it's smooth. But it's, even though it's still a bit firm, actually just letting the gluten relax, like the knowledge that has been acquired from just spending time making it again and again and again. You know, I love that. And like where, what my roti will be like now versus in another five years. You know? 

As I start to also build on what roti means and what other rotis I can then learn and master. That's something that I really enjoy. The next book, or the next book might have more roti recipes, it's nice, the idea that then what the roti means to me will grow and change.

Hema: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, roti is one of those dishes or recipes that cannot be rushed. To make a good roti, you just need sometimes to just allow it to rest.

Marie: Hmm. Exactly. Which is a really beautiful lesson in, just food in general. Sometimes it's like, you know, we spoke about those recipes that are for later in in the week or a Sunday. You know, it's for those days when we don't want to be in a rush and there's a lot of beauty in that. And taking your time.

Hema: On, on the cover of your book, you have the Sankofa bird,

Marie: Mm-hmm.

Hema: and that's purposeful.

Marie: Yes.

Hema: Tell me about that.

Marie: I, I think I probably saw the Sankofa symbol for the first time, probably like six or seven years ago, and was really drawn to it. And I still am, every time I see a version of it, I'm always just like, it just speaks to me. And when we were editing one of the essays, I was speaking about the Sankofa and I just made a note to my editor and was like, I think this should be the cover of the book, because I just had this really strong image.

Because so much of what I'm talking about is how our past is informing our present and our future and the Sankofa is essentially a symbol that that and for me, I just thought it would be an an incredible, powerful image that is often associated with black resistance, and strength and resilience. And so to be able to put that on the cover of a book about food, which is also about strength and power and resistance, um, and resilience really for me, I was just like, if this can actually happen, it's actually quite incredible. 

And, and, because I think a lot of the time something about it it doesn't make it look like it's in a cookbook, which it is, but it is more than that.

And so I think from the moment when you capture, you look at that book, you're like, there's, there's more in here. And it's, it's able to kind of showcase that. Though a lot of the time people are like, oh, the chicken, I'm like, it's not a chicken. Um, and that, why I was like, we need to put the explanation of what it is really early in the book.

So actually people are like, okay, it's not a chicken and egg. It's like, no, no, no. There is, there's more going on here.

Hema: You say that this is more than a cookbook. How would you describe the book?

Marie: I describe it as a narrative cookbook because it takes you on a journey and a story, and it’s more than a cookbook because ultimately if you just want to open it and cook good recipes that we can absolutely nail without any issue, you can do that, but it also gives you, an insight into how, how incredible the Caribbean is, just how the people are so layered and how much depth there is. 

And, and, and also just an understanding of, you know, this little family from South London and how they've had an influence on others and, myself and, and being able to just share that with people. It's like a, maybe it's a, a microcosm of, of the Caribbean itself in terms of the fact that it's like a story about my family, but then like talking about the resilience, the, the hardships, the sadness and stuff we've experienced, but then the joy that also then comes from that, and then that being one of the stories that exists for the Caribbean itself.

Hema: I made multiple notes while reading your book, and, and this quote sort of goes along with what you're saying, which is, "The depth and complexity of our cultural history is evident in our food. But while that complexity can't be ignored, it remains widely misunderstood and our food seems a mystery to some or to many".

And I feel like that really sums up so much of what we've been talking about is the food is not just the food and the recipes, but there's a whole complex history that goes along with

Marie: Hmm.

Hema: almost every single dish that you've written about in this book.

Marie: Yeah. And it is, it's just wove, it's woven in. And, um, I just think I really want people to appreciate that. And think that's why when you eat it, and maybe that's why people are, there's sort of a, a, a misunderstanding about itbecause of the fact that maybe when you eat it well, certainly there is so much complexity, and without maybe having an understanding of it or having cooked it, you'll think that that's something that is beyond what you're able to do, and it's not.

It's just knowing that, just engaging in it, and you realize that that's just, if those layers are woven in, because it's just like extra spices. You've got the fresh, you've got the, you’ve got the dry spices, you've got the, the pickles and the, and and the fruitiness and the sourness and the heat, the, this, all of those things into woven together that kind of create this dance that's like a melody that you get to experiment with. 

Hema: The name of this podcast is The Moreish Podcast. Do you know what that word means, moreish?

Marie: In my head I assumed it was, um, when you're wanting more, it's moreish.

Hema: Yes. It, it is a word that I grew up knowing is specifically around food. If you're eating something really delicious, it's moreish because you want more.

Marie: Yeah.

Hema: Um, and, and that gesture that you made is, is the what, what I make, what I talk about it. And interestingly enough, I don't know if it's, used just in Trinidad, and that's why I know it. But it's not a word, I've learned through this podcast and through many guests, that many people in the Caribbean know, and

Marie: Really

Hema: in more research it is very much a British term.

Marie: Okay,

Hema: So,

Marie: I was going to say I, I use it all the time, but yeah. Okay.

Hema: I think that's why you would probably know it. Any place that had British colonialism might know it. I think that's probably why I know it Trinidad, but maybe not widely known all across the Caribbean.

Marie: Okay. I didn't know that.

Hema: Yeah.

Marie: See, I love when you come, you do these things and you're like, I just learned something new.

Hema: I'm learning something new all the time from the guests that I have on this podcast, and it's opening my eyes to different experiences, different people, the different lenses through which they view culture and heritage, and all of it shows me that in the Caribbean we are kin and we have similar ancestries and similar histories, but for every single person it is unique and it's interpreted differently.

Marie: Exactly. And that's the beauty. That is the beauty. We just all get to see it with different eyes.

Hema: Before we wrap up, you have so many other things going on, and I wanna make sure that if people want to connect with you, where can they reach you?

Marie: I only laugh because people always like, oh, what e you up to? And I'm like, oh, not very much at the moment. And then I say things and they're like, you are so busy. But in my head, I don't think I am. That's why I laugh, um, I, you can mostly find me on Instagram. It's Marie_Mitchell_ or my website, which is mariemitchell.co.uk or my Substack, which I'm finally going to start writing more frequently, which is, Slow Rituals, all linked from my Instagram.

Hema: And I will leave links in the show notes to all of these so people can connect with you.

Marie: Thank you. Thank you.

Hema: You are more than a cookbook author. You're more than somebody who runs popups and events. You started this conversation with the lens through which you approach food, and I'm gonna read a little line from your bio. That you're a cultural practitioner who works with words and food, adopting a considered approach to discuss social and political themes in spaces of nourishment. As we close off, can you tell us what that means?

Marie: It means that I create spaces, whether that be through conversation, or whether that be through the food that I pour time, energy, and love into that are nourishing. 

This is a more recent bio that I've really thought about because I genuinely is, it's probably come from feedback, but also from my own desire to put in the world spaces of nourishment, but particularly through the lens of either what I'm able to give you in terms of food on a table or standing, but just from the inside out or through conversation that then you can take away and think about, but both of those are centered around nourishment.

Hema: Marie, I thank you for taking the time to join me today on the podcast. We've really just scratched the surface of the book and some of the other work. But again, I'm gonna leave all of the links in the show notes for people to continue to follow the work that you're doing and engage, because I think this conversation is more than the food, as you've just mentioned. There's so many layers, and I suspect, I don't know, but I suspect that as time passes you're going to be sharing more and more as you uncover more and more in your own life.

Marie: Yeah, a hundred percent. That's, I'm, I'm on a journey, and I'm on a journey where it's a personal, it's a personal thing, so I always talk about my work as selfish in many ways,because I do this, because I'm desperate to know more, but. Where it moves from being selfish is then I share that with people and, and hopefully, as time goes on, more and more people are interested.

Um, so yeah. But thank you so much for this conversation. It's been really beautiful.

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